From the windup position, with a runner on third, pitcher can step and throw to third?

I'm assuming from "the windup position" means he is in contact with the pitcher's plate.

I'm confused here because, rule clearly states, "step and throw to a base in an attempt to pick off a runner". But, 8.01(a) states:

From this position any natural movement associated with the delivery of the ball to the batter commits the pitcher to pitch without interruption or alteration. The pitcher shall not raise either foot from the ground, except that in the actual delivery of the ball to the batter.


Please shed some light on this rule please!

Yes.

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I'm assuming from "the windup position" means he is in contact with the pitcher's plate.

Good assumption.

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I'm confused here because, rule clearly states, "step and throw to a base in an attempt to pick off a runner".

Seems clear enough

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But, 8.01(a) states: From this position any natural movement associated with the delivery of the ball to the batter commits the pitcher to pitch without interruption or alteration. The pitcher shall not raise either foot from the ground, except that in the actual delivery of the ball to the batter.

The whole paragraph is talking about the delivery of a pitch. IF it's a throw to a base, or to step off the rubber, obviously the restrictions on "lifting the foot" don't apply.

(Oh yeah -- I answered this for OBR -- LL might have a different take -- but I doubt it in this case.)

Bob, by lifting the foot to throw to a base, isn't that a

"natural movement associated with the delivery of the ball to the batter commits the pitcher to pitch without interruption or alteration. The pitcher shall not raise either foot from the ground, except that in the actual delivery of the ball to the batter".

Why ever pitch from the stretch then? There seems to be no restrictions on the pitcher from the stretch or wind-up with runners on base.

When I was coming up, pitching from the wind-up committed you to pitch to the batter, unless of course you stepped off rubber and went into the stretch.

I'm curious why I never see the Pro's take advantage of this.

ex: R1 on third, pitcher in wind-up position, lift leg as though to pitch to batter, throw to third to pick off runner. hmmmmmm

<u>by lifting the foot to throw to a base, isn't that a

"natural movement associated with the delivery of the ball to the batter . . ?</u>

You can't step & throw without lifting your foot. Throwing to a base from wind-up is legal.

<u>Why ever pitch from the stretch then?</u>

The elapsed time of movement to the plate is much shorter from set.

<u>When I was coming up, pitching from the wind-up committed you to pitch to the batter</u>

High school rules require this. Pro rules do not.

<u>I'm curious why I never see the Pro's take advantage of this.</u>

The elapsed time of movement to the plate is much shorter from set.

<u>ex: R1 on third, pitcher in wind-up position, lift leg <b>as though to pitch to batter</b>, throw to third to pick off runner. hmmmmmm</u>

Then it becomes a balk.

One way to interpret this (although probably not accurate 100% of the time) is:

"natural movement associated with the delivery of the ball to the batter AND NOT ALSO ASSOCIATED WITH THE NORMAL MOVEMENT TO THROW TO A BASE commits the pitcher ..."

It's not a whole lot different from the motion where the LH pitcher from the set lifts the leg -- he can (absent any other movement) either pitch or throw to first from this point.

Rich, you say,

The elapsed time of movement to the plate is much shorter from set.

Not if pitcher can just lift leg and deliver pitch without first taking one step back during wind-up. It seems to me that:

The elapsed time of movement to the plate is much shorter from the wind-up.

But, what do I know, I only pitched for 12 years.

Thank You for your responses!

Hey guys, never seen a throw to a bag from the wind up, but....say we got a righty on the hill, wind-up.He steps to third with left foot, doing so (in my crazy head) it appears to simulate a delivery to the batter. His non-pivot foot is crossing his body and appears to be the start of a pitch. Try it with right foot, thats gonna look so funky even the rokkiests of rooks will nail em.....Food for thought

Not if pitcher can just lift leg and deliver pitch without first taking one step back during wind-up.

Seems to me that from set you are already turned, but from windup, even with no rocker step, you have to add the turn time (or risk the results of an all-arm pitch).

Seems to me that from set you are already turned, but from windup, even with no rocker step, you have to add the turn time (or risk the results of an all-arm pitch).
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Rich Ives

Go try it. Stand on mound in wind-up position, lift leg straight up and then try to TURN on pivot foot putting pivot foot in hole in front of mound as in stretch position and try to pitch.
You'll break your ankle. Why would you have to turn?

The reason for my last post was,

The elapsed time of movement to the plate is much shorter from the wind-up.

NOT, "risk the results of an all-arm pitch".

Plus, it's less movement than from the stretch. Stupid me, I always thought it was because the pitcher was limited on what he was allowed to do from the wind-up vs the stretch.

I think the original purpose to my posted question is lost here.

But I think I have the answer I was looking for. I am with you Chris s, I have never seen a pitcher throw to a base while in the wind-up position while on the rubber, and if I do......THAT'S A BALK!!

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Especially in FED, step and throw from wind-up is not legal. If anybody has some video of this move, I'd love to see it. I just don't see it possible. Step and throw to first from wind-up, yea, never seen it, but it is legal and possible, for a righty. But, how many dumb coaches are having thier F1's toss from wind-up with runners on??

Picking off a runner from the wind-up will never be done. First of all the pitcher goes to the wind-up conceding the pick-off play.

If he was thinking pick off, he would go to the stretch.

Now if the pitcher is in the wind-up position, and he is going to pick someone off, the he better do it with out any preliminary move.

Does anyone actually read previously posted threads, or just type whatever comes to mind?

My original post was, Lil' League Pitching rule 8.01(a)(2).

NOT FED, NOT OBR, NOT NFHS.

*Especially in FED, step and throw from wind-up is not legal. If anybody has some video of this move, I'd love to see it. I just don't see it possible. Step and throw to first from wind-up, yea, never seen it, but it is legal and possible, for a righty. But, how many dumb coaches are having thier F1's toss from wind-up with runners on??

Chris s
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Step and throw to first from wind-up, yea, never seen it, but it is legal and possible, for a righty.

Why not legal for a lefty? The rule doesn't distinguish between righty or lefty. Nor does it distinguish between
which base he cannot throw to.

how many dumb coaches are having thier F1's toss from wind-up with runners on??

Some pitcher's throw better from the wind-up. With a runner on third, why not pitch from the wind-up? More power on pitch from wind-up and unlikely runner is gonna steal home.


*Picking off a runner from the wind-up will never be done. First of all the pitcher goes to the wind-up conceding the pick-off play.

If he was thinking pick off, he would go to the stretch.

Now if the pitcher is in the wind-up position, and he is going to pick someone off, the he better do it with out any preliminary move.

Whowefoolin
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Have you read rule I'm referring to? Or seen other posts regarding this rule? And where did "any preliminary move"
come from?

You say:

Picking off a runner from the wind-up will never be done. First of all the pitcher goes to the wind-up conceding the pick-off play.

Then you say:

Now if the pitcher is in the wind-up position, and he is going to pick someone off, the he better do it with out any preliminary move.

See TOP please!


I was hoping this forum would help me with a better understanding of the rules and situations, instead it has confused me even more.

Thank You All for your responses...I think!

Yes -- and the rule was explained.

It's legal (other than in FED) to throw to a base from the wind-up position.

You don't see it because (a) pitchers think it's illegal, and (b) it doesn't fool anyone (at least at higher levels).

If I was coaching youth baseball, I'd use it.

(OH -- I should add that in LL 12 and under, since there aren't any lead-offs, there aren't many pick-off attempts either. At least, that's my understanding.)

I'm confused about the fact that there are so many different views of the rule.

The rule is the rule.

Rich says it's a balk.

Whowefoolin says pitcher concedes the pick off play when in wind-up position.

Chris s says it's possible for a righty.

You say it's legal.

I value your interpretation, Bob, but why are we not on same page here as umpires?

I assumed there would be a defining answer, but, there I go assuming again!

And yes, I understand that:

in LL 12 and under, since there aren't any lead-offs, there aren't many pick-off attempts either.

Shouldn't be any pick-off plays in minors or Lil' League. But what about juniors and seniors under LL rules?

And yes, I will be teaching my son, who is a pitcher, this rule, and to use it.

Can't wait til I have him try it in the game.

I can hear the Ump now......Balk!

But now that I know better, you won't see me making that call.

Thank You for your response!

Yes, it is a balk in FED. We said so. The original question was, though, about LL, not FED.

I just think after calling FED ball and now calling LIL' League for the 1st time, I am getting the rules confused. There are several differences in the rules, and this is surely one of them.

The conversion is driving me crazy! lol

Thank You All for your responses!

Except that there are multiple rules codes.

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Rich says it's a balk.

No, Rich says it's a balk in FED -- he's right.

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Whowefoolin says pitcher concedes the pick off play when in wind-up position.

Correct -- it doesn't fool anyone at the higher levels because the pick-off move --other than perhaps the leg kick, looks nothing like the normal pitching motion. The (usual) pitching motion has a step back and arm movement other than directly to a throwing position (brought togehter, raised ove the head, etc). The pick-off move needs to be a direect, immediate (don't take these words too literally) step and the arm will go to a thrtowing position (it's not required for a feint, but will be practical for the actual pick-off).

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Chris s says it's possible for a righty.

For a righty, it will be easier to have the pick at first. Most pitchers pitch from the set with a runner at first, even if there's also runners at second and third). For a lefty, the move will be easier to third.

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You say it's legal.

I say it's legal under NCAA and OBR rules.

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I value your interpretation, Bob, but why are we not on same page here as umpires?

I have some ideas, but you'll have to come to your own conclusion.

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I assumed there would be a defining answer, but, there I go assuming again!

There is, if the question and answer(s) is (are) properly defined and understood.

Ok guys, who has seen a step and throw from the wind up? I would love to see how this is done. As I said before, it's gonna look so bad even the rookest are gonna nail it.....MOST F1's are gonna step off ,then try to hose

what I am saying....
 

Ever see a lefty step and throw to first from th e wind-up??? IT DOES NOT HAPPEN, forgive me if I am stupid or whatever, but after 10 seasons of calling ball from the little guys to the "Shavers", I have NEVER seen a pick move from the wind-up...ooops, once, I nailed the F1 for a balk cuz he stepped back with non-pivot and wheeled and dealed. I would love to see video on this, tonsee how a F1 can legally pick a R1 at first, It just does not happen.....

I've seen it maybe once or twice in my career, Chris. Most pitchers don't even bother to try and pick off from the windup, though. I don't think it's because they believe they can't - we don't have FED down here, so there is no confusion on that count, and our LL equivalent plays by OBR with a few safety variations. The point is that it's just too risky most of the time.

Most baseballers, even pitchers ;), have learned that going into the windup position concedes that you likely won't attempt a pick-off with a runner waiting to score from 3rd if you stuff it up. The exception is the wise guy who thinks he's invented a new wrinkle and steps off while simulating the start of his pitching motion. BALK!!! The response of most catchers I know would be to take that guy aside and ask him "<i>who told you that you could think?</i>" :D

Nevertheless, it IS legal and it IS possible to pick off to ANY base from the windup so long as the arms and leg don't get raised together. Hands fixed in front of the body until the pivot and direction of step is clear, then throw or feint to the base. Raising the arms while raising the leg IS the start of the pitching motion when facing the batter in the windup position, regardless of the pitcher's intent.

For that reason, thumpferee, when on bases I watch the hands and let my peripheral vision detect movement of the feet. If I see the hands begin to move upward and the feet start to move at all then I'd better see a delivery to the batter or I've got a "Balk!"

Cheers

BINGO....
 

How long you be callin, Warren? EXACTLY Picks from the wind-up do not happen, legal, yes, practiced, nada... 99.999 percent of the time when a F1 decides to "step and throw", he BALKS(from the wind-uip, that is) I got this dead horse out back, me beat the crap outa him!!...Cheers Warren:)