Bat Rolling
 

My 11 year old son plays travel ball and they are already doing cage work. We use a facility near my house and the boys are all showing off their new bats and prowess. Last night, I received this message, forwarded from the facility through the coach.

Now, I know that it isn't shaving or loading a bat but this is the first time I've seen this done around here. Maybe in other areas of the country it is more popular. It seems to fly in the face of deadening the bats for safety and I wonder if any associations have banned this practice. Have you done this to your bat(s)? Seen it make a difference? Removed bats because they have been altered?

My kid is a pitcher and I hate the idea of a hot bat being employed while he is just 50 feet away. But I recognize that with each rule change coaches will try to find a way around them. Personally, this sounds like a bad idea waiting for something awful to happen all in the name of the long ball. Thoughts?

BBCOR testing actually takes composite bats, rolls them repeatedly until failure, and tests them along the way. If, at any point, they perform over the set limit, they fail. So these bats are "safe", if they're only rolled. You'll see the term ABI, or advanced break in, and that's what this means.

Ah, but the question is, are they considered altered? I've heard both sides of this arguement, but nothing authoritative.

Composite bats have a certain life cycle. They start out like bricks, loosen up over time and use, then go dead. Rolling will get you nearer the end of the cycle, where performance is highest. Also understand that it's that much closer to death.

If you ask any manufacturor, they'll tell you putting your bat in a vise will indeed void the warranty, so these guys are liars. Just on that statement alone, I wouldn't trust them.

1. Coaches trying to get an edge? I'm shocked, shocked!
2. Bat rollers using deceptive advertising? I'm shocked, shocked!

I'd think that taking the "over 500 swings" might actually make you a better player!

Since there's no convenient way to test if a bat has been rolled, i.e. altered from its original design, this bodes badly for the BBCOR initiative. I watched a couple videos online about the process and it looks like if done badly, the bat will have a flat spot - $250 down the drain for Junior. I've tossed bats with flat spots from games before but this coming high school season we won't inspect bats and coaches know it. This should be interesting.

I imagine that if more than one player is swinging the same "HOT" bat, we will be asked to inspect it before the game is over. JMO

Okay, I admit that I spent way too much time looking online for bat rolling online. After a couple hours of looking at vendor sites, YouTube and reading up on the issue, it is pretty clear that detecting it is almost impossible. Basically, the bat rolling machines squeeze the resin that interlocks the composite fibers enough that they weaken. This creates a trampoline effect and a few sites show huge differences in exit speed and restitution. The bat manufacturers know that composite bats break down over time and make their bats 'less hot' when new, so that they will comply after a hundred hits or so. I found a couple associations that have banned composite bats altogether due to how they react when broken in. The new baseball equipment magazines are out and Junior's new toys cost $300 or so. Roll 'em and add another $75, void the warranty and speed up the process of it finally breaking down completely. Nice.

$75.00 just to roll a bat! Hell, you should be able to get one machined and rolled for about that price.

Just hit off a tee. That will break them in faster.

One more thing. Some companies dumbed down their BESR bats to BBCOR by inserting a metal ring, to truss up the insides. Rolling those will probably eff them up, and not produce the desired results.

Again, I don't know if rolled bats are considered altered, or not. I've felt rolled bats before, and you can feel the facets, ever so slight, but they're there.

Me, I'm worried about the end caps being removed. That either means a shaved bat, or one that the ring has been removed. Now that's an altered bat.

If you think rolling a bat isn't altering it you've come under the influence of a mind altering substance.

I dunno about that. A year ago I would have agreed. But since then the new testing technique is rolling 'til death. Thus, proving that rolling doesn't cause the bat to overperform. Hence, rolling should be legal.

Now, I consider rolling to be akin to a pitcher rubbing up a baseball. Just warmin' it up. (well, maybe not warming it up, as some rulesets have wording prohibiting heating up bats).

p.s. I'm only on my first Blue Moon Pale Ale of the evening.

Rich:

I agree with you completely. Especially about rolling mind altering substances, ;).

MTD, Sr.

Fair enough, fellas. How 'bout these other techniques?

Hitting 500 of those hard rubber balls at the cages?

Hitting a "heavy bag" time after time?

Hitting a wooden telephone pole repeatedly?

Backing your car over it, repeatedly?

Don't get me wrong, these are all stupid things to do to a kid's $300 stick. But folks do each of them. And given that it's been proven that rolling doesn't alter the performance characteristics beyond the given threshold, I'm inclined to overlook those rippled bats from now on.

Rolling is cheating, plain and simple. It's altering the bat, now being able to detect a rolled bat is another question all together. Unfortunately, manufactures, coaches and dads, have forgot there's more to baseball than the long ball. Still there's a simple solution, it's called wood. And at $300 a pop, that's a lot of wood bats. Than again, coaches and dad's have forgot or never learned how to hit with wood to begin with.

I realize that the bat standards for baseball and softball are not the same, but here is the new terminology for the bat rule in softball:

That's actually old terminology that's been in rule book awhile. The "editorial change" is that it was moved from one section of the rule book to another.

Kyle, where are you getting your info on ABI? As I understand the ABI process, it involves rolling a bat only to a degree that simulates the stress that a bat typically sees with normal use. What is being measured is how "hot" a bat might get under normal circumstances, not how much stress it takes to make the bat fail. The intent is to determine if a bat's performance will exceed the BBCOR standard after a given period of normal game usage.

This is to prevent manufacturers from producing bats that perform at the cusp of the standard right out of the wrapper, with the knowledge that minimal use will make the bat hot enough to exceed the standard. To get BBCOR certification, the bat must perform below the standard after any break-in period.

All the ABI testing does is allow the broken-in bats to be tested after a few passes through the roller, as opposed to having to perform hundreds of bat/ball impacts to get to the same point.

How about teaching an 11 year old how to hit, (bat speed through the zone and making solid contact) and not worrying about altering a bat. Good batters hit line drives, with wood bats or metal bats, instead of fly balls, pop ups or ground balls. Sheesh!!

Seriously?

I've felt and looked at bats I know are rolled and shaved, and I couldn't tell the difference from one to the other. They can take those end caps off, and you cannot tell if they've been off or not.

So, how long did it take you to advise said cheater (oka...coach) that you are removing your son from the team and want all monies paid to this point refunded?

While I don't like the notion of rolling a bat, it isn't cheating as long as it doesn't flatten the bat.

There are a number of companies out there which sell bats that are 'pre hit'. In other words, you pay them to hit a few hundred baseballs in order to stress the resin in your composite bat. The bat becomes livelier while still conforming to BBCOR standards. A new, rolled bat is simply much deader and players/coaches know it. They have found a way to speed up the process of making the bat ready to go. It also shortens the life of the bat but that is hardly a concern to most. It still makes me shake me head to see a kid open his bag and pull out almost a $1,000 worth of bats. My son will break in his bats the old fashioned way. My arm will be plenty sore from throwing his batting practice but its the price I pay for wanting him to be ethical and talented.

Happy Thanksgiving to all.

Some bats are hotter out of the wrapper, and some take a lot to break in. Rolling a bat doesn't really weaken the structure of a bat. I've seen some of the composite carbon fiber bats break after about 50 swings. They should come with a one year warranty depending on who and where you obtained the bat from.

It's always just the luck of the draw.

Happy Thanksgiving, Steven.

I checked a few manufacturer sites and all state that bat rolling will void the warranty. This seems to be a bigger issue in softball, Miken and Worth both state that it weakens the bat so the warranty is void. As I said in my OP, I have never encountered this issue in baseball until the training facility near us offered the service. It appears to be just another way to gain an advantage without doing the work.

web1.ncaa.org/web_files/rules/baseball/bats/NCAAABIProcedure.pdf

Yeah, you're not going to be able to feel a shaved bat, but I've felt a few rolled ones. They're rippley. It's slight, to be sure.

As far as "weakening" them, I guess it's how you want to define that term. Softening up the bat will make it perform better, to a certain extent. Too soft, and it goes dead. I've heard the term "ripe" tossed around behind the backstop, after five straight , into the wind, dingers with the same bat.

The first two sentences of that document reinforce what I posted above:

"This accelerated break-in procedure is meant to demonstrate how a composite bat will perform during its potential useful life in the field. This test procedure may be used...to quantify the effect that bat usage has on performance..."

There's a huge difference between performing ABI under controlled laboratory conditions and what the average Joe might do to doctor his kid's bat down in the basement. One uses controlled conditions to simulate typical, normal bat usage and ensure that the bat still performs below the standard. The other is "anything goes" and it's goal is to produce the hottest bat possible, one whose performance can exceed the standard, creating a competetive imbalance or even a safety issue.

This is from a 2011 NFHS Points of Emphasis memo:

https://nfhs-baseball.arbitersports....%20Release.pdf

Top of page 2. Seems pretty clear to me.

The only trick is how to PROVE a bat has been altered by rolling.

CSI anyone?

Integrity -- What one does when nobody is looking.

Agreed. It is one of the cornerstones of being an official.

Now if players and coaches can just get on board.

My concern is that a coach infers that an opponent's bat has been altered and there is no way to confirm that. Major hassle with no solution.

Not perfect, but you can do the "paper test". Use a sheet of notebook paper and wrap it around the barrel of the bat. Slide it up and down while slowly turning the bat. You can feel the smallest of ripples. All bats will have some ripple or minor dents that can be felt using the method, but a rolled bats ripples will be uniform.

YMMV

Joel

We are no longer charged with checking bats and hats in Illinois. If your state requires the pregame check, that may be the place to find it. Around here, they now put the onus on the HC and his staff. He needs only to confirm at the plate meeting that his players are properly and safely equipped. Given that few schools around here supply bats and helmets (almost all are personal), a coach can simply play ignorant and agree that as far as he knows all the gear is compliant. He is not held resposnsible for illegal gear, we are supposed to treat the infraction as the player's responsibility even though the coach is required to check them.

I didn't like being the equipment police before but this new policy just seems to invite new problems.

Really?

I was recently out in Phoenix for the World Championships/Senior Softball, and I was at the Combat distributor's trailer. He said there is really no true way to see if a bat has been rolled. They can check for machining when the bat is open, or the end cap is off. There is really no way to determine how many hits the bat actually has on it.

He did add that their bats are very hot out of the wrapper as they're working to get a slice of the Mikan and Worth business. The factory "hottens" the bats so to speak.

So go figure.

So if you can't tell the difference, then we don't worry about it. If you're in the "its cheating" camp, so be it, but what are you going to do about it. What if you think a bat is rolled and it hasn't been rolled? Now you got a huge $hit storm on your hands...these kids still have to be able to hit...just like $2,000 clubs aren't going to make me a better golfer, but $2,000 worth of lessons surely will.

Anyone else missing wood bats?

Don't really care what they do to the bats. Coaches problem!

If the bat meets the rules in 1-3, that can be physically verified on the field, then it is legal. If not, someone will pay the price.

Don't really care what they do to the bats. Coaches problem!

If the bat meets the rules in 1-3, that can be physically verified on the field, then it is legal. If not, someone will pay the price.

Nothing authoritative? The NCAA, NFHS and ASA all state that bat rolling is illegal because it alters the bat in a way that is unnatural to its intent.

Bat manufacturers state in their warranties that they will not honor a return if the bat has been rolled.

A bat that has been through a break in period via hitting baseballs will look different - the damage to the bat will not be uniform and any resin chipping inside will be more confined to points of impact. IMHO and the others stated above, rolling a bat is cheating.

I'm only speaking from slow pitch softball experience, but I believe standards are bats will not exceed 98mph even when broken in. I bought mine year before they changed rule. 98mph out of wrapper and when broken well over 100 mph.