Chew, Chew, Chew Changes
 

2011 World Series -- Senators urge baseball to ban tobacco - ESPN

Maybe it is time.

I agree that it is time to stop the "dip" in MLB, but I do not think that the government needs to bother itself about it. It's bad enough they are involved in just about every part of our lives. Do they really need to be involved in baseball, too?

That's funny. The government has been involved with baseball before. (Think, Roger Clemens?)

It's nothing new.

Rita

I do like the Bowie reference!:cool:

Some think the government should be less involved, some think more invilved, some think jsut as involved as they are now, some think the level is fine, but the focus needs to be changed.

I hope that covers it, and no one feels the need to turn this into a political discussion.

With all due respect, Bob, this became a political issue when politicians involved themselves in the discussion. They chose to make it a political discussion, not us.

Not nearly as many children as you'd think, with all games being played at night.

As opposed to the millions of dollars spent on advertising alcohol, which is SOLD at the games.

Totally agree.

Kids do not watch baseball anymore anyway. It is older 45 year old and older that grew up on the game and mostly white males. Heck hardly anyone outside of that is consistently watching baseball. The kids are more into the NBA and the NFL. And that does not matter if the games are played at day or night.

That is what I do not get. We worry about the "kids" but then they expose them to ads with a think they cannot even have until they are 21, then we get upset over what someone puts in their mouth during a game?

Peace

It's been involved with baseball far longer than that. (Think, anti-trust exemption.)

Yep.

Peace

I'm confused as to why anyone would consider this political. The four senators did not propose government involvement or intervention. They requested that MLB institute its own policy.

My son and I got home from football practice (post season begins in two weeks) and after his shower and homework, asked me to put on the World Series. We aren't fans of either club. He is eleven and watched it until bedtime along with his twelve year old sister. When they came downstairs this morning, the first question he asked was, "Who won?"

Baseball still has plenty of young viewers. I get to a few Cubs home games each year and at least one White Sox contest. It still makes me smile to see so many kids wearing the baseball gloves in hopes of catching a foul ball or having it signed.

Kenesaw Mountain Landis

You also said they watched until they went to bed, they obviously did not watch the entire game. When I was a kid they played World Series games during the day many times and we watched the entire game when it was at night. That is part of the problem because the game ends when many that could be interested are going to bed for the biggest games of the year. Baseball is marketing their sport terribly IMO to the very people that will make the game enjoyable for those to grow up and play it. The other sports do a much better job.

Peace

And what Gallup Poll did you commission to reach that conclusion?

If truth be told (it kills me to say it) Soccer will soon be the sport of choice when the kids grow up.

The NF has baseball as the fourth most popular sport as it relates to participation.

I do not agree with the last part because our country only thinks of this country in such a narrow way. Real soccer talent is playing outside of this country. How many kids want to go to Spain or Brazil or England to play a game they cannot see on SportsCenter? Also does the average kid know the contracts of Messi or Kaka like they do A-Rod or LeBron. Our best athletes do not play soccer and probably never will in this country unless there is a huge shift in attitude towards football and basketball. Even with the lockout in the NBA, kids love NBA basketball or at least some of the best athletes that are likely to become NBA players and that is inner-city or urban background kids. And playing soccer is expensive for a kid to play, while basketball you do not need much to become decent.

Peace

What is your context for this comment? All you need for soccer is open space and something to pass for a ball.

You need soccer balls, fields, goals and probably shoes to play at the highest levels of organized ball and other individuals to play with or against to test you real skill. When I went to the World Cup last year I saw many kids playing in the playground, who does that in the states?

I can go to the local gym right now and play the game alone by shooting baskets, but will find many willing participants to play against in a semi-serious way.

Peace

In the fall the parks are filled and I mean filled to capacity with little kids playing soccer. These little kids will grow up to be soccer fans. As far as soccer being expensive well all you need is a ball. Incidently I think MLB set another attendance record. That's a lot of 45 year olds going to games. I won't see it in my lifetime but when the studies come out and show how serious concussions are participation in football will go way down. You know why? The Moms won't let their sons play.

The fact that soccer, in it's most basic form, is INexpensive is the very reason it's the world's most popular sport.

It's my opinion, however, that it won't become wildly popular among adults in the U.S. until they do something to increase scoring.

Carrots.

As soon as they figure how to make the sport attractive to gambling that's when it will take off. That's one of the main reasons why football is so popular. It's the gambling.

Just because a kid played soccer from ages 9-13 doesn't mean that they will be a life long soccer fan.

Assuming that the concussions studies actually produce the results that you are predicting and assuming that helmet technology does not improve and reduce the risk of concussions.

Riddell introduced a new helmet in 2002. A three year study was conducted using over 2,000 HS football players the the new helmet reduced the risk of a player suffering their first concussion by 41%. Riddell recently introduced a new helmet but I don't believe there are statistics on that helmet yet. Football players used to have a decent risk of suffering a skull fracture and dying. Helmet technology has basically eliminated that risk. Helmet technology is continuing to improve and reduce the risk of concussions.

Sorry I disagree. Football is more exciting to many if for no other reason the score is more than 1-0 or games do not end in 1-1.

Also you act like football is not being played by kids at young ages. There are leagues all over our area where every Saturday and Sunday kids that can barely keep a helmet on their head are playing every single weekend. I pass a park where kids play soccer and there are not the amount of teams I see playing football and certainly not the group playing basketball.

And they gamble in soccer all over the world. Some of the biggest scandals in soccer across the world have been based on gambling. I do not see fantasy soccer being played for a sport that scores only a few times an entire game. It is also not apart of our culture like it is in other countries. When I went to South Africa all that was on TV was soccer and rugby. When the South African team was playing, the entire country was on lock down and everyone was watching. Even with the minimal popularity we have here, the entire country is not just watching soccer.

Peace

You must not see many youth football games. Moms are the ones sitting their yelling for their kids to play football the most at the ages you claim are playing soccer. Lacrosse has probably one of the biggest followings recently in this country, not soccer.

Peace

Assuming we are considering the same company and technology, that study was proven to be flawed. The Revolution helmet reduced consuccions by about 3%. A couple of football programs have lawsuits pending against them for the misrepresentation. I coach youth football and have seen far too many kids hurt this year.

Soccer/football is played in almost every nation in the world. Many play in the dirt without shoes. Baseball costs far more to play.

Getting back to the original topic, children still watch the Series. Again, last night we returned from football practice and watched the game. Bed time is 9 around here, provided he has his homework done. He saw most of the game. Had it been the Cubs playing I would happily allow my kids to stay up. ;)

Jeff,

By far there are more kids (boys and girls) playing soccer in youth leagues than football. It's only a matter of time before soccer becomes a major sport. When it is determined the long term effects concussions have you can be certain the Mom's won't let thier kids play. That's just what Mom's do. I've become disenchanted with football both with the corruption and exploiting of the athletes at the collegiate level and the length of the pro game. Even Notre Dame who I really never liked but always respected has sold its soul to the devil. You remember back in the day the early games were done by 3:00 and the late games by 6:00. It's almost become unwatchable. Now they're done by 3:20 and the last one finishes by 6:30 or so. I don't gamble. Gambling dominates that sport be it fantasy football, parlay cards, bookies etc. I still watch football and I am a Bears Fan and try to watch the game but if I can't I really don't miss it.

They told us back in 1994 that Soccer would take over when the World Cup would come to the US. We are over 15 years since then and they cannot fill soccer stadiums for the MLS. And you keep talking about what moms do not want their kids to play, but football has way more participants at the high school level. It is not even close when it comes to numbers or even schools that play. Most schools in our state for example do not even have soccer teams at all. Soccer teams are mostly in the Chicago/Northern in Illinois and are very sparse in the rural areas that probably will never have soccer just because they do not have enough kids to even field a team if they wanted to in HS. Soccer is primarily in middle class areas or areas that have high numbers of Hispanic or ethnic kids that come from countries or parents come from countries that are where soccer is apart of the culture.

I also looked up some numbers in our state 434 playing soccer and 574 playing football in the State of Illinois as both play in the same time of year.


College football has some of the biggest ratings in all of sports and about 20 different channels run college football games somewhere. There is a daily show on ESPN dedicated to college football. You think that if it was unwatchable that ESPN would dedicate so much programming to an unwatchable sport? Not only that, if ESPN did not show MLS games, the sport would hardly be able to watch a single game on TV. And do you think the kids and families care what you or I are disenchanted with? If they get a scholarship to play football or basketball, the parents will not have to pay for their college at all. If the kids get into soccer, field hockey or baseball scholarships might not even be possible. And that does not even include the pro potential in those sports that parents seem to also push in this day and age. I see nothing that is changing that feeling towards the major sports and certainly not soccer.

Well you are almost alone there. Most Bears fans constantly talk about the games and cannot miss the game. I even know many Bears fans that are women and they live and die with every play. I do know many that play fantasy football, but many do not. And if your argument is that gambling and fantasy are the only reason people watch football, how is soccer every going to compete? Fantasy football has a set system to gain points and judge who had a better game, soccer does not have yard stats or anything to make people judge how well a player did unless you really understand the sport. Basketball, football and baseball all have stat lines you can look at the end of the game and see what that player did. Soccer only has goals or maybe saves and I doubt people will start following a sport just for that reason.

And the part you have still not addressed is why are at the high school level all these kids are not playing that sport at a higher rate? If concussions are the reason, then it has yet to translate. I just do not see kids playing soccer over football anytime soon.

Peace

Hi Jeff,

Jeff I'm telling you just drive around on a Saturday there are way way more kids playing Soccer than football. When the concussion stats come out and if it's shown that the long term effects are harmful the Moms won't let their kids play. Incidently I don't particularly care for Soccer. And don't even go there that college athletes aren't exploited. I mean it's a big deal when one of them graduates with a meaningful major. Everyones making money but the athletes.

Gordon,

I do not need to drive around any community when I know the culture of football officiating in our area. Almost everyone on a football crew in our area has a guy or several guys that work either college football or youth football over the weekends. And the youth guys make a lot of money working youth games over the weekend as they almost never work one game. They are working multiple levels and several at one setting. I am not seeing any youth soccer being played at the rate I see football games being played. Now that is anecdotal of course, but if all these kids are playing soccer, I go by many fields or colleges and I do not see a soccer game being played. What I do see is adult soccer on those fields and it is not folks that you could say are

You and I both know a certain assignor that assigns basketball that assigns youth football for almost every Pop Warner and Bill George league in the area. I have even worked a few weekends this year myself and for a few years used to work the Chicago Catholic Grade School League that was played in public parks or places where multiple fields were available, they were not playing soccer on those fields and it is not just dads sitting on the sidelines yelling at their kid "Get the ball." Whether there were single mothers or married couples, a lot of women were there watching their kids. I would even say that most of the fans watching were women. I doubt that these were just people in the community coming to watch someone else's kids play a game when the kids can barely run with a helmet on their head.

And this is not something that we cannot figure out. If soccer is becoming the rage, why aren't there more teams and participants in our state or nationwide? A kid that is 6'8 in our country is not playing soccer and being a goalie (like they do in other countries), they are playing basketball and only basketball in many cases. You have to have more evidence than what you see driving. We can measure this.

Peace

Jeff, you know I coach football and baseball besides umpiring. I am passionate about all three endeavors. My son played soccer while we were abroad. We were stationed in the Philippines for almost seven years and he learned a great deal from the game. He is now our kicker on the youth team and has a 37 yarder to his credit at just 11 years old. Yeah, I'm proud - soccer made him fast and strong while he didn't get dinged up by kids learning how to hit and tackle properly.

That said, soccer is huge in the rest of the world. It is a poor man's sport. You only need one ball and a bunch of kids can have at it. No hoops, shoes or refs needed. Here in the U.S. youth soccer is huge. But like many athletic endeavors, the attrition rate is incredible as kids age. Our football Bantams had 200 kids try out. We had 108 in Feather and less than a 80 for Middle. We could barely field two squads for Heavy this year. As kids get older they lose interest or are driven away by injury, bad coaching or other issues. That happens in almost every sport. Heading back towards the focus of this thread, I still see more adult baseball leagues than football or soccer (except the South of the Border and European leagues). Baseball is still beloved but horribly expensive to pursue. I just received the latest Baseball Express catalogue in the mail. $300 bats and $200 gloves are common place. We will cheer the Bears as they play in London but would rather see the Cubs in the WS!

I totally agree that it is the world's sport and that for the average kid in other countries do not need much and they play soccer. But in this country where everything is organized and everything the top players are not developing from a playground the way they are on a travel team, or a local league. And soccer is not going to take off if the best athletes do not play it. They do not see the end game like they do in the other sports. Kids do not play with the Nerf ball in the back yard like they once did. As I said before I have a video of kids in South Africa playing and you do not even see kids do that for football and baseball here in this country like many of us did. When I hear they have too many games for the officials to cover in soccer in this country, then I will believe there is a takeover.

Peace

Jeff, I am not and I don't believe anyone else here is suggesting that soccer is taking over the nation. Youth soccer, especially U12, is extremely popular in America though. You and I both know that baseball is declining in popularity as a high school sport. Yet, we still have more games than umpires some days. It is unfair to judge the popularity of athletics by the number of officials available. Baseball is still alive and well in Illinois, as it is elsewhere. Football may be more exciting and attractive to some, but kids, young and old, still get wide eyed when Spring arrives at the diamond. That is why I contend that the influence of tobacco use by the game's elite has bearing. My 11 year old may not want to chew because of it but others might. The risks of prolonged use are known and it is probably time to ask them to stop dipping. Once upon a time players could openly smoke cigarettes in the dugout. The outcry was noted and the game moved on.

I hope your games went smoothly this past weekend. Our playoffs start next week and we face a team that killed us earlier this season. Should be interesting.

I would've thought the habit would've died off when they banned chew in the minor leagues. I guess not. It's time the players union give in on this one. At least the teams don't provide the chew anymore.

I've chewed a handful of times over 20 years ago. Idiotic thing to do and I'm glad I never got hooked on that or cigarettes (I've probably smoked less than a pack in my life, always after a night of drinking). I have my weaknesses, but I'm glad these aren't part of them.

I know that having enough football officials down the road is a concern. We used 112 crews in the playoffs this past week (that's 560 officials). That's fewer crews than on a typical Friday night in Wisconsin, when most teams play. My crew is a playoff crew that had off this past weekend (we work next week where the demand is down to 56 crews and halves to 28 and then 14 for weeks 3 and 4). It's the Friday nights during the season that are hard to fill. A lot of crews are carrying officials that probably aren't ready for varsity or playoff work.

The difference between football and football (sorry, soccer) is that we use at least 4 on most youth games through sub varsity, 5 on varsity, and 7 on college. Soccer uses one certified ref and maybe, if lucky, a certified person to work the lines. There may be a lot of games, but there are a lot of younger kids working even younger kids games. One thing soccer seems to do pretty well is develop kids to be officials at some point, even while they are still players. We don't do that, even with youth football, which I think is a mistake.

Actually Mike, Gordon tried to suggest that you see soccer being played all over the place if you drive around. Well, that might be the case in the suburbs, but that is not the case in the inner city. Soccer is largely in this country a middle class and suburban sport. Kids in rural areas like where I grew up are not playing soccer even that much at the youth level. Not to say there are no leagues, but there are not the numbers to play that sport and field a football team in many of those communities. Also when I umpire baseball games, it is not unusual that I am the only African-American on the entire field. And I grew up playing baseball and love it more than any other sport as kid and teenager. Baseball is not dead by any means, but I do not see kids like me playing it anymore as they do playing football or basketball. ESPN did a story on the lack of Blacks playing baseball and how many HBCUs had to recruit many non-Blacks to field a baseball team at the D1 level. Things have changed since the times Jackie Robinson played the game, that is for sure.

Peace

The opposite is true as well. I was asked to teach an umpire clinic at US Cellular field about a decade ago. I received the offer after they saw me work a Public League game that had a tense rivalry. I was the only white guy there at both events. I began my clinic with, "I didn't grow up around here. I'm a Cubs fan, so if you have questions, talk slow and I'll do my best to follow along." It worked and we now have a few more baseball umpires on the southside. I'm glad because the ball I saw played deserved top notch officiating. Inner city baseball is still there but it costs a lot more to play. I mentioned it here before but at the Niles North tournament years ago, a city team was featured. Upon reaching base they kids would put on leather work gloves. I inquired why and the AC said that the boys are used to playing on fields with glass, bottle tops and worse in the dirt. Even with a kitty litter infield they kept up the ritual. Environment shapes the future.

Driving around the greater Houston area (in arguably one of the biggest football states), you will see not only a lot of soccer fields but those fields filled with kids of all ages and races. With the large Hispanic population here, it is especially popular in those areas. Soccer is by no means exclusively a rich, suburban sport here. I'd say that lacrosse, ice hockey, softball and baseball (to a lesser extent) fit that bill better.

That was also my experience when I lived in California.

When I do see a lot of soccer being played, it is not just by kids and it is by Hispanics. There are a lot of adult leagues or tournaments that go on around here too. There are many local Park Districts that have really nice turf soccer only fields and I do not see a lot of kids playing on them. I am sure there are kids playing, but as I said I do not see that translating into high school players. Soccer is a great youth sport and always will be.

Peace

In my county, which has a population 895,000 and somewhere in the top 20 of most affluent counties in the country*, soccer is the norm.

Disclaimer: These are my guesses in talking with people, working around youth, and observing, for my town. I have worked in youth recreational athletics so these numbers aren't just me "driving around."

The town I know best has its rich parts (which are entire towns some places in the county) and has its middle class parts (which are representitive of more suburban-urban towns in the area.) As for the urban setting, none of them play anything but street basketball and a little bit of baseball so forget those parts.'

Girls factor is X.6 on the boys rate.



Population: 57,000.

Soccer:

Average number of teams per grade (K-8): 14
-many of these are just Town Rec leagues, some are travel in the 3rd-5th grade levels)

Average number of kids per team: 9
Total kids playing (K-8): 1900
Percentage of kids playing youth soccer : 27%

Football (boys only):

Average number of teams per grade (3rd-8th): 3
Average number of kids per team: 25
Total kids playing (3rd-8th): 75
Percentage 3rd-8th playing: 1.5%

Baseball/Softball (girls rate reduced to .4:

Average boys number of teams per grade (3rd-8th): 14
Average boys number of kids per team: 12
Total kids: 1400
Percentage (3rd-8th): 28%

Basketball:

Average number of teams per grade (3rd-8th): 12
Average kids per team: 10
Percentage (3rd-8th): 22%


Been about like that for as long as I can remember (15 years).

*I say that not to brag, just to point out the socioeconomics of it if anybody cared. Obviously football is alot more expensive, yet nobody plays it here where they have as much money as anythign

Tuss, I'm curious, what are the figures for Lacrosse and Ice Hockey if you have them?