Astros/Cubs ending - Whose call?

[TussAgee11]

Impossible play to umpire. PU must take position for a collision play and is screened by oncoming R3. U3 gets to stare at F5's backside. Nobody has a great look.

Correct call. Sphere of the ball is hanging over line.

[Larry1953]

Originally Posted by TussAgee11

Impossible play to umpire. PU must take position for a collision play and is screened by oncoming R3. U3 gets to stare at F5's backside. Nobody has a great look.

Correct call. Sphere of the ball is hanging over line.

Quite true on all accounts. At the MLB level you just don't expect F5 to make such a dumb play to put everyone in that predicament. I saw a few web articles using this play to call for expanded use of replay. Jeesh, no replay views were perfectly definitive and the best one shows they likely got it correct and used perfect mechanics. One report said Mills went out to argue that it was the PU's call but it was explained that the mechanics change with R3 and he got quiet pretty quick after that.

[MikeStrybel]

Originally Posted by TussAgee11

Impossible play to umpire. PU must take position for a collision play and is screened by oncoming R3. U3 gets to stare at F5's backside. Nobody has a great look.

Correct call. Sphere of the ball is hanging over line.

Admittedly this is a long time ago, but I heard Bruce Froemming explain to us that the base line is not the same as the plate when it comes to three dimensions. The ball in the photo shown is touching foul territory. The foul line is only considered to extend upward when judging a ball that is in air. This ball was foul according to what we were taught, it is in contact with foul territory.

From MLB Rule 2.00

A FAIR BALL is a batted ball that settles on fair ground between home and first base, or between home and third base, or that is on or over fair territory when bounding to the outfield past first or third base, or that touches first, second or third base, or that first falls on fair territory on or beyond first base or third base, or that, while on or over fair territory touches the person of an umpire or player, or that, while over fair territory, passes out of the playing field in flight.
A fair fly shall be judged according to the relative position of the ball and the foul line, including the foul pole, and not as to whether the fielder is on fair or foul territory at the time he touches the ball.
Rule 2.00 (Fair Ball) Comment: If a fly ball lands in the infield between home and first base, or home and third base, and then bounces to foul territory without touching a player or umpire and before passing first or third base, it is a foul ball; or if the ball settles on foul territory or is touched by a player on foul territory, it is a foul ball. If a fly ball lands on or beyond first or third base and then bounces to foul territory, it is a fair hit.
Clubs, increasingly, are erecting tall foul poles at the fence line with a wire netting extending along the side of the pole on fair territory above the fence to enable the umpires more accurately to judge fair and foul balls.

FAIR TERRITORY is that part of the playing field within, and including the first base and third base lines, from home base to the bottom of the playing field fence and perpendicularly upwards. All foul lines are in fair territory.

[Larry1953]

@ Mike Strybel

Interesting aspect about a ball settling in foul territory. The ball bounced twice. The first time it hit the line and kicked up chalk. The second time it touched the ground only in foul ground with the conjecture that an edge of the sphere was still over the outer edge of the line.

A baseball is about 3 inches wide (diameter). Let's say that it leaves a 1 inch imprint when it hits the ground. So the point of impact would take up 1/2 inch of the 1 and 1/2 inches of the half of the ball that could have been at risk of being above the edge of the line. That leaves 1 inch of the ball to be over the line - max. It seems impractical to be able to judge that with the naked eye from 30 to 60 feet away or even with ultra slo-mo high definition replay. Any parallax from a camera or eye angle that is not precisely down the line would introduce a margin of error of at least an inch.

So, if replay is ever to be used for a case like this, it is probably best to call it foul if it does not definitely hit the line and show some chalk kicked up.

[umpjim]

I have a ball that was touched while part of it was over fair territory. I have it fair and so does Jim Evans.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by MikeStrybel

Admittedly this is a long time ago, but I heard Bruce Froemming explain to us that the base line is not the same as the plate when it comes to three dimensions. The ball in the photo shown is touching foul territory. The foul line is only considered to extend upward when judging a ball that is in air. This ball was foul according to what we were taught, it is in contact with foul territory.

I'm not douobting what you were taught, but it doesn't make sense to me.

If the ball was 30' farther out, it would hit third base -- fair ball. If it was 330' farther out and 30' higher, it would hit the foul pole -- home run. So, the ball in this play should be fair. That's how I was taught, and what makes sense to me.

[Larry1953]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

I'm not douobting what you were taught, but it doesn't make sense to me.

If the ball was 30' farther out, it would hit third base -- fair ball. If it was 330' farther out and 30' higher, it would hit the foul pole -- home run. So, the ball in this play should be fair. That's how I was taught, and what makes sense to me.

Bob, that makes sense. However, consider a ball hit on a line 250 feet further that landed in the same proximity to the line without kicking up any chalk and bouncing away into foul ground. It might be better to call that one close but no cigar.

[TussAgee11]

Originally Posted by Larry1953

Bob, that makes sense. However, consider a ball hit on a line 250 feet further that landed in the same proximity to the line without kicking up any chalk and bouncing away into foul ground. It might be better to call that one close but no cigar.

And this is why you aren't an umpire.

Bye bye now.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Larry1953

Bob, that makes sense. However, consider a ball hit on a line 250 feet further that landed in the same proximity to the line without kicking up any chalk and bouncing away into foul ground. It might be better to call that one close but no cigar.

Better by whose perception? Not by any umpire I know. PS - can't find "close" in the definition at all. It's fair or it's foul and the rule is VERY easy to understand.

[Larry1953]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

Better by whose perception? Not by any umpire I know. PS - can't find "close" in the definition at all. It's fair or it's foul and the rule is VERY easy to understand.

Ortiz hit a ball near the Pesky pole today that was ruled foul. The replay seemed to show it hit about a foot and a half fair hitting the Scott sign. Just saying, if it hits near the foul line and doesn't kick up chalk, probably best to rely on that clue considering Estabrook might have missed it by 18 inches with all the clutter in the background.

ETA: another replay shows it might have just grazed off the fence to the foul side of the pole in that weird "hockey rink" right field. Strange play.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Larry1953

Ortiz hit a ball near the Pesky pole today that was ruled foul. The replay seemed to show it hit about a foot and a half fair hitting the Scott sign. Just saying, if it hits near the foul line and doesn't kick up chalk, probably best to rely on that clue considering Estabrook might have missed it by 18 inches with all the clutter in the background.

ETA: another replay shows it might have just grazed off the fence to the foul side of the pole in that weird "hockey rink" right field. Strange play.

Please just stay off the field.

[Larry1953]

Originally Posted by Larry1953

Bob, that makes sense. However, consider a ball hit on a line 250 feet further that landed in the same proximity to the line without kicking up any chalk and bouncing away into foul ground. It might be better to call that one close but no cigar.

Precisely this play happened in the Ray/Ranger game tonite. The ump had all but called it foul until he realized it had kicked up chalk.

[MrUmpire]

Originally Posted by Larry1953

Precisely this play happened in the Ray/Ranger game tonite. The ump had all but called it foul until he realized it had kicked up chalk.

So then, he didn't call it foul?

[Larry1953]

Originally Posted by MrUmpire

So then, he didn't call it foul?

Because it kicked up chalk. An inch to the left and it would not have. I really doubt he would have "seen the shadow" and called it fair.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by MikeStrybel

FAIR TERRITORY is that part of the playing field within, and including the first base and third base lines, from home base to the bottom of the playing field fence and perpendicularly upwards. All foul lines are in fair territory.

Your inference here is both contrary to rule and common sense. You seem to be saying that a particular ball could be foul, yet if you take that same ball and lift it an inch it's fair. Sorry - that dog don't hunt.

And yes, I have seen a ball come completely to rest while touching only foul ground - and still be fair by rule.