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-   -   How long would it take? (https://forum.officiating.com/baseball/8056-how-long-would-take.html)

harmbu Thu Mar 27, 2003 02:41pm

How long would it take you to make the call on this play?

Runners on first and second with one out. High popup on the infield near the first base line about halfway between home and first. The plate umpire yells "infield fly, batter's out!" The first baseman misses the ball, it hits in fair territory and bounces untouched into foul territory.

I know that the ruling is a foul ball, but in this instance the umpire continued with the out signal and the offensive coach asked very politely, "Wasn't that a foul ball?" The umpire called timeout and went to the base umpire to clear it up. The correct call was ultimately made and we have to give the umpires credit for getting it right, but doesn't it worry you that a varsity high school umpire even needed to ask for help on a play as simple as this. I guess both teams were lucky to not have anything really confusing happen in the game.

Tim C Thu Mar 27, 2003 02:51pm

Hmmm,
 
If the umpire would have used the correct mechanic:

"Infield FLY, if FAIR!"

He would have alerted himself to the possibility of the exact play that eventually occurred.

I would like to hope that I would have nailed it immediately.

Tee

[Edited by Tim C on Mar 27th, 2003 at 05:12 PM]

Rog Thu Mar 27, 2003 04:25pm

re: "but doesn't it worry you that a varsity high school umpire even needed to ask for help on a play as simple as this."
Most high school officials are just that - high school officials, and not professional who work major league games.
More than likely most of these officials do it as a means of a "meager" secondary income.
One needs to be aware of the amount of mandatory training time required, length of travel time to and from game sites, game lengths, equipment costs, along with the all too common BS thrown at an officials, then balance all this against the financial returns.
When it is all said and done, you get what you pay for in most areas of life.

nine01c Thu Mar 27, 2003 06:32pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Rog
Most high school officials are just that - high school officials, and not professional who work major league games.
More than likely most of these officials do it as a means of a "meager" secondary income.
One needs to be aware of the amount of mandatory training time required, length of travel time to and from game sites, game lengths, equipment costs, along with the all too common BS thrown at an officials, then balance all this against the financial returns.
When it is all said and done, you get what you pay for in most areas of life.

Well, a mistake is a mistake, and it can be made by any umpire at any level. But I take exception to your accusation that most HS umpires are under-trained, over-worked, under-paid, and take the heat too much to give a damn. If that is your attitude, I would imagine your games do seem overly long (for your partner). Actually, if that is ANYBODY'S attitude, I wonder why he would be officiating at all?

True, there are some umpires just there to get the check. But, the majority of guys I work with in my area really enjoy their (secondary) job, take pride in their gear and appearance, seek continuing education and training, and earn some decent bucks umpiring HS games. Then, they go for more "abuse" in LL, BR, Legion, AAU, Stan Musial, etc. Until the real professional Major League Umpires take over amateur games, I guess the high schools will be stuck with us inferior HS umpires.


Rog Thu Mar 27, 2003 08:20pm

re: "I take exception to your"
and I take exception to someone who reads a post and then edits it to their liking.....

Personally though, I have seen too few HS umpire's who were adequately trained (much less over-trained) though I guess one could argue that merely showing up to a half-dozen meetings could serve to qualify someone to be an umpire. Absolutely overworked, i.e. working solo games for 3-4 hours in 90+ degree weather with 80% humidity (and in some cases unscheduled doubleheaders). Then there is that generous monetary reimbursement. Which the umpire pays for their own equipment, manuals, rule books, travel expenses, insurance, and let us not forget to claim those game fees on that tax return so Uncle Sam gets his fair share. Most umpire's I know are lucky to break even after all this.

5 sport ref Thu Mar 27, 2003 10:58pm

If he would have used the right mechanic he would have saved himself a little grief.

I know my association demands it veteran (5+ years) to attend an eight hour clinic (memebers under 5 years have 5 three hour clincs) before the season along with a state approved clinic and rules interpretation. At our clinics, we have both classroom, cage and simulated plays we run through. All this plus the wacky plays our members had during the last year. This is done to insure our members are ready for the season to start. We pride ourselves on our training. You just can't walk on the field especially at the varsity level and expect to make the right call with the right mechanic if it isn't practiced a little before the season starts.

I work mostly for enjoyment because you can't make a decent living at this. I just want to give back to the game some of what I took from it.

Whowefoolin Fri Mar 28, 2003 12:41am

Out call? Who uses an out call on a "can of corn"? Everyone in the free world knows it is an out, you don't have to pump your fist.

So with your situation, why was the PU so vigorous with the out call. Let's say it was the right call, you would yell out in-field fly and that is it!

It sounds like there was a lack of knowledge which got said ump into a hole. At the high school level...no excuse. You should know.

And pumping an out after the call is not a brain fart.

Bfair Fri Mar 28, 2003 12:56am

Quote:

Originally posted by Rog

Most umpire's I know are lucky to break even after all this.

I suspect this statement is about as wrong as calling out a batter for an infield fly on a foul ball...........
Either that or you don't know many umpires..........


Freix




JRutledge Fri Mar 28, 2003 03:00am

Which one?
 
Quote:

Originally posted by 5 sport ref


I know my association demands it veteran (5+ years) to attend an eight hour clinic (memebers under 5 years have 5 three hour clincs) before the season along with a state approved clinic and rules interpretation. At our clinics, we have both classroom, cage and simulated plays we run through. All this plus the wacky plays our members had during the last year. This is done to insure our members are ready for the season to start. We pride ourselves on our training. You just can't walk on the field especially at the varsity level and expect to make the right call with the right mechanic if it isn't practiced a little before the season starts.

You know I live around you. I was wondering which association are you a member of? Maybe I have worked with you at some point?

Peace

Rog Fri Mar 28, 2003 09:48am

So, are you saying that you are able to make ends meet from what you make just umpiring high school games???
I think not!!!

And, making attendance manadatory for five training sessions of 3 hour durations, does not an umpire make.....

Perhaps this was what that umpire had under their belt for training, along with little or no experience. I know this is stretching things a bit - since this could never be the case, or could it?????





Quote:

Originally posted by Bfair
Quote:

Originally posted by Rog

Most umpire's I know are lucky to break even after all this.

I suspect this statement is about as wrong as calling out a batter for an infield fly on a foul ball...........
Either that or you don't know many umpires..........


Freix





5 sport ref Fri Mar 28, 2003 10:09am

I never said you can make a living at officiating. What I said was "I work mostly for enjoyment because you can't make a decent living at this. I just want to give back to the game some of what I took from it."

I agree that training does not a umpire make. You can never know enough and at every clinic you can pick something up. Nothing like real game experience to learn.

To JRutledge- I am a member of UMPS.
Our webpage is http://www.umps.org/


Striker991 Fri Mar 28, 2003 10:44am

Tide has turned
 
Hmmmm....looks like the tide has turned from volunteer umpires to high-school umpires. I bet we could get all of you riled up way more if it was a volunteer high-school umpire! :-0

Sorry...couldn't resist....

DownTownTonyBrown Fri Mar 28, 2003 01:08pm

Lot of costs
 
I know that when I tally up my earnings and my expenses for Uncle Sam... I don't make a buck an hour.

Time off work is nice but that is an expenditure that I can't deduct from my earning. However, it does get deducted from my vacation time. So I am essentially trading my vacation with my family for a buck an hour to indulge myself in officiating.

I guess I am a slow learner because I am still officiating.

Jerry Fri Mar 28, 2003 01:37pm

Officiating and Making Money
 
Perhaps you should consult a tax attorney or business consultant. As an "Independent Contractor", you can be in business for yourself and ultimately deduct any "losses" from income from other sources . . . thus avoiding paying taxes on that other income. Assuming you make at least $30,000 from other sources, your "officiating business" can actually end up saving you the equivalent of what taxes you owe.

You don't have that "luxury" if you treat umpiring as a hobby.

Jerry

chris s Fri Mar 28, 2003 02:29pm

My god! You guys are nuts!Let us screw up( It does happen) Then we post a synopsis on our beloved board. BOOM the hammer comes down. Come on guys..

Bfair Fri Mar 28, 2003 03:24pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Rog
...the umpire pays for their own equipment, manuals, rule books, travel expenses, insurance, and let us not forget to claim those game fees on that tax return so Uncle Sam gets his fair share. Most umpire's I know are lucky to break even after all this.
<B>Then Rog states :</b>
Quote:

Originally posted by Rog
So, are you saying that you are able to make ends meet from what you make just umpiring high school games???
I think not!!!
Rog, first you drown us in tears about barely being able to break even with expenses, and when I take objection to it you then compare it with trying to make a living solely from umpiring income. They are not the same. It seems you switched the music halfway through the dance. I hope that doesn't occur on the field.

Umpiring provides a nice <u>second</u> income and allows the person the ability to vary the amount of time that they wish to dedicate to that endeavor. Still, I find it difficult to believe that many (if any) don't do better than breaking even with expenses. Like most things in life, people put forth different levels of effort to meet THEIR OWN level of pride and satisfaction---not all are the same. Expect to encounter those with both high level and low level expectations of themselves along the road. I suspect the strong will survive while the others are left along the wayside, and new umpires will be in training soon to exhibit which level they wish to attain.

If anyone doesn't feel the effort is worth the reward,
then they need to look at spending their time in a different manner.
The choice is theirs..........


Freix






Rog Fri Mar 28, 2003 06:33pm

Well Steve, I believe the issue I initially addressed was this -
"but doesn't it worry you that a varsity high school umpire even needed to ask for help on a play as simple as this."
Now, given the fact that the poster asked about, a varsity high school umpire needing to ask for help on a simple
play, leads one to believe that this poster is under the impression that all varsity high school umpire's are proficient
in the "vocation" of umpiring.
There is every real possibility that this umpire was either - not certified, and /or trained, or experienced enough to
be doing a varsity game.
If you want me to believe that varsity umpire's as a general rule are competent, I am sorry but that is just a bit
too much BS to swallow from what I have experienced up and down the east coast. Along with having had the
displeasure of working with more than a couple of incompetent varsity officials over the years.
I am sure you know of whom I speak - the ones who admit to not having read over a rule book in ten years but still
know the rules, even umpires who show up for those training sessions but run their mouths through the whole thing
while others are trying to listen and learn, or those who do not get good game ratings and subsequently do not get the
quality varsity games but may at the last moment get thrown on games because there just was no one else available
to call the game, or maybe no one wanted to do that game due to certain "team attitutes" so a JV member is pulled
up from the ranks and put on the game. Then again it might just be that person who says I am only going to get "X"
amount of $$$ for my time, expenses and efforts so why shold I put to much effort into all this. Or maybe that umpire
just flatout boned the call. Could it but? Yes I know, none of this $hit ever really happens - - - or does it.....
Then comes the issue of making some money umpiring during the high school baseball season. I can't speak for
anywhere but where I have worked games, but those schedules were only 8 weeks long, i.e. 28 games. Then those
marvelous playoffs which maybe get you another 8 games. Now add it all up, and we are sure talking about some big
money here folks - not! You then can claim that overwhelming wealth on an IRS Schedule C form.
But as someone else mentioned, when you add up your real costs and time you are not making diddly. A nice second income you say, well I guess if you're an assigner.
So, you really better "enjoy the moment".....

PeteBooth Fri Mar 28, 2003 07:38pm

<i> Originally posted by harmbu </i>

<b> The correct call was ultimately made and we have to give the umpires credit for getting it right, but doesn't it worry you that a varsity high school umpire even needed to ask for help on a play as simple as this. I guess both teams were lucky to not have anything really confusing happen in the game. </b>

First: This could have just been a "brain fart" on the part of blue. We have all been there no matter how experienced. It happens

Second: IMO in order to make a statement that you made above <b> "but doesn't it worry you that a varsity high school umpire even needed to ask for help on a play as simple as this". </b> you need to observe this umpire for more than just one game. In other words, does he /she forget the rules in ALL their games or was this just one of those games.

How about a HS varsity coach who sends a runner home KNOWING F7 has a gun and ultimately the runner is thrown out by a mile. Would you then say "Doesn't this worry you that a HS varsity coach could make such a mistake"

IMO, coaches, umpires, players etc. need to be viewed over time and not just one game before you can make a statement such as yours.

Pete Booth

jicecone Fri Mar 28, 2003 08:32pm

"A nice second income you say, well I guess if you're an assigner."

Excuse me? When you take into consideration the hours you put in assigning games; listening to the leagues cry when you have a bad day; trying to get you on the phone to do a game, even though you have 3 numbers and don't answer any of them; trying to handle the rainouts and canceled games before you arrive at the field and get upset that you weren't called; begging you to do a game when your stuck and you tell me your finger nails have to be trimmed, and I have to be nice because I might need you to do another game.

Oh, and I forgot about the wife and family actually haveing the nerve to ask me to take time to even speak to them.

Lets See, $3.00/hr would probably equal my pay. Hell, I made a lot more officiating the games, that I used to have time to do.

Your enjoying the moment more than you realize.




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