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-   -   d-backs/padres ending (https://forum.officiating.com/baseball/80412-d-backs-padres-ending.html)

SanDiegoSteve Sun Sep 11, 2011 08:05pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry1953 (Post 787127)
Not clear at all. It is clear that with the bases loaded, a walk or HBP allows each runner to advance one base without liability of being put out. BUT the game is not over UNTIL R3 touches home and B/R touches first. A batted ball is different since no run can score when a force out is the third out at any base. You see the situation often.... Grounder to third on over to second, on to the tenth tie game. The game is not over because the runners were forced and R3 touched home and B/R
touched first. The little matter of the 5-4 force negated the run and forces are not timing plays. If the (next) base or the runner (R1 or R2) is tagged before the runner touches the base, it is a force out. If it is the third out, no runs score. In the OP where R2 abandoned his attempt to advance to third he could "theoretically" be put out on appeal, but the run counted and the game ended before the appeal could be made.


In Merkle's Boner there were runners on first and third and Merkle did not advance to and touch second after an apparent game winning hit. Would it make any sense that the situation would be any different just because the bases were loaded??
I believe that it is possible for R1 or R2 to be forced at 2nd or 3rd before R3 and BR touch home and 1st, but not after the BR touches 1st. That removes the force, and it becomes a time play. Ergo, the run scores regardless of what happens to the other runners, provided R3 touches home and BR touches 1st before the putout is made on the other runners.

SanDiegoSteve Sun Sep 11, 2011 08:13pm
Since this is the only open thread right now...
 
...to Bob Jenkins RE: Last entry in recently closed thread...ROTFLMAO!!! Great post!:D

Rich Ives Sun Sep 11, 2011 08:17pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry1953 (Post 787132)
Another play covered by 4.09(b) would be catcher's interference. Same mechanics as a walk or HBP.

But, say it was an uncaught third strike. You could retire R1 or R2 if for some reason they did not touch the next base by a force out mechanic.

Or take this situation. Grounder to third toward short. R2 stops so as not to be tagged. F5's throw goes over head of F4 into RF. R2 thinks the winning run scored and exuberantly races to the plate to join the celebration without touching third. He can still be forced out at third to negate the apparent winning run.
If the game is over (as the rule says) when the BR touches 1B and R3 touches home, how can you then force out a runner?

Larry1953 Sun Sep 11, 2011 08:24pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve (Post 787134)
I believe that it is possible for R1 or R2 to be forced at 2nd or 3rd before R3 and BR touch home and 1st, but not after the BR touches 1st. That removes the force, and it becomes a time play. Ergo, the run scores regardless of what happens to the other runners, provided R3 touches home and BR touches 1st before the putout is made on the other runners.
The B/R reaching first safely does not remove the force play for runners forced to advance: you frequently see short fly balls to RF drop in and R1 gets forced 9-6 at second because he had to play it half-way. Actually the thing that removes the force is retiring the B/R at first like on a hard grounder to F3 and then F6 has to tag R1 on a 3-U-6 DP.

Read 4.09(b) closely...it says the game is not over UNTIL.... Not WHEN. That rule is not meant to absolve the offense of being in jeopardy of force outs just because the bases are loaded. It says that B/R and R3 have to go through the motion of advancing to and touching the base. Just like a B/R has to touch all the bases after a HR and the pitcher (in OBR) has to throw the pitches for an IBB.

Larry1953 Sun Sep 11, 2011 08:44pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich Ives (Post 787137)
If the game is over (as the rule says) when the BR touches 1B and R3 touches home, how can you then force out a runner?
Rich, 4.09(b) says the game is not over UNTIL (not "when"). There is nothing in that wording that takes off the force. Say B/R hits a slow grounder to third and beats the throw to first. Meanwhile, R1 pulls a hamstring on his way to second and falls down incapacitated. He can still be forced at second for the third out to preserve the tie.

Why would 4.09(a) not ALWAYS apply?
(a) One run shall be scored each time a runner legally advances to and touches first, second, third and home base before three men are put out to end the inning. EXCEPTION: A run is not scored if the runner advances to home base during a play in which the third out is made (1) by the batter-runner before he touches first base; (2) by any runner being forced out; or (3) by a preceding runner who is declared out because he failed to touch one of the bases.

umpjong Sun Sep 11, 2011 09:36pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry1953 (Post 787141)
Rich, 4.09(b) says the game is not over UNTIL (not "when"). There is nothing in that wording that takes off the force. Say B/R hits a slow grounder to third and beats the throw to first. Meanwhile, R1 pulls a hamstring on his way to second and falls down incapacitated. He can still be forced at second for the third out to preserve the tie.

Why would 4.09(a) not ALWAYS apply?
(a) One run shall be scored each time a runner legally advances to and touches first, second, third and home base before three men are put out to end the inning. EXCEPTION: A run is not scored if the runner advances to home base during a play in which the third out is made (1) by the batter-runner before he touches first base; (2) by any runner being forced out; or (3) by a preceding runner who is declared out because he failed to touch one of the bases.
Do you not see the difference? This part of the rule paragraph (a) is for an inning ender not a game ender as (b) is for a game ender, thus the specific note that only the BR and R3 need to advance. You even cite your own answer. "The game is not over until R3 and the BR touch their bases. Thus excluding the other two runners from having to advance. If they wanted them included they would added them to that part of the rule. OBR is known for some vaguely written rules, but this one is not one of them. It is very specific and precise.

Larry1953 Sun Sep 11, 2011 10:12pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by umpjong (Post 787155)
Do you not see the difference? This part of the rule paragraph (a) is for an inning ender not a game ender as (b) is for a game ender, thus the specific note that only the BR and R3 need to advance. You even cite your own answer. "The game is not over until R3 and the BR touch their bases. Thus excluding the other two runners from having to advance. If they wanted them included they would added them to that part of the rule. OBR is known for some vaguely written rules, but this one is not one of them. It is very specific and precise.
Your interpretation and reasoning is incorrect. It hinges on the word "until". Note also the "exception". The rule is not meant to say, there is an exception to the exception about force plays. Think about it, has ANY MLB umpire crew worked out a mechanic to TIME a 5-4 force in the bases loaded 2 out situation to see if R3 crosses the plate before the force is made at second? Never, never in 50 years of watching baseball has this ever been remotely considered.

OK...4.09(b)...."or any other play with the bases full which forces the runner on third to advance..." Fine, the batter hits a towering fly to the gap warning track deep. Is this "a play"? Yes. Does it force R3 to advance? Yes. Does R3 cross the plate and B/R reach first before the catch is made? Easily done, it was hit that deep. Then, according to rule 4.09(b) the run counts and the game is over. Well, we all know that is wrong because of the way the third out was made. It is the SAME thing if the third out is made by a force (at any base).

umpjong Sun Sep 11, 2011 10:57pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry1953 (Post 787158)
Your interpretation and reasoning is incorrect. It hinges on the word "until". Note also the "exception". The rule is not meant to say, there is an exception to the exception about force plays. Think about it, has ANY MLB umpire crew worked out a mechanic to TIME a 5-4 force in the bases loaded 2 out situation to see if R3 crosses the plate before the force is made at second? Never, never in 50 years of watching baseball has this ever been remotely considered.
Your scenario doesnt fit the criteria in the slightest. I will try this one more time and then if you insist, you can just be wrong and be happy.

The rule states that if R3 and BR reach their base in a game ending scenario, the game is over at that time, period, and the progress of R1 and R2 has no bearing on the game that has just ended by R3 and BR reaching their advanced base.

You do see that you are the only one clinging to your philosophy? And your 5-4 mechanic, or whatever you are trying to propose is another fact that goes against your own reasoning because it does not happen. Bottom line is that once R3 scores, and BR reaches 1st base the game is over and the bell aint getting unrung.

Larry1953 Sun Sep 11, 2011 11:10pm
OK, one last time here: R3 CANNOT "score" a run IF the third out is made by a force. Even if the force is a Merkle type boner. The game is not over until the run "scores". The run does not "score" until a third out force situation is resolved. If the third out is a force out no run can score. That is one of the most fundamental rules in baseball. Jeesh!

umpjong Sun Sep 11, 2011 11:15pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry1953 (Post 787162)
OK, one last time here: R3 CANNOT "score" a run IF the third out is made by a force. Even if the force is a Merkle type boner. The game is not over until the run "scores". The run does not "score" until a third out force situation is resolved. If the third out is a force out no run can score. That is one of the most fundamental rules in baseball. Jeesh!
You are wrong, but as i said you may be happy and wrong - be my guest.;)

umpjong Sun Sep 11, 2011 11:23pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry1953 (Post 787158)
Your interpretation and reasoning is incorrect. It hinges on the word "until". Note also the "exception". The rule is not meant to say, there is an exception to the exception about force plays. Think about it, has ANY MLB umpire crew worked out a mechanic to TIME a 5-4 force in the bases loaded 2 out situation to see if R3 crosses the plate before the force is made at second? Never, never in 50 years of watching baseball has this ever been remotely considered.

OK...4.09(b)...."or any other play with the bases full which forces the runner on third to advance..." Fine, the batter hits a towering fly to the gap warning track deep. Is this "a play"? Yes. Does it force R3 to advance? Yes. Does R3 cross the plate and B/R reach first before the catch is made? Easily done, it was hit that deep. Then, according to rule 4.09(b) the run counts and the game is over. Well, we all know that is wrong because of the way the third out was made. It is the SAME thing if the third out is made by a force (at any base).
There you go, since you added this try getting around it. You cant. There was never a third out because as the rule states - the game is over, period. Be happy and wrong though. We still love ya. ;)

Larry1953 Sun Sep 11, 2011 11:27pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by umpjong (Post 787164)
You are wrong, but as i said you may be happy and wrong - be my guest.;)
We'll see. I doubt you'll find many of the regulars here in your corner.

Larry1953 Sun Sep 11, 2011 11:40pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by umpjong (Post 787165)
There you go, since you added this try getting around it. You cant. There was never a third out because as the rule states - the game is over, period. Be happy and wrong though. We still love ya. ;)
You're pulling my leg now. Probably have been all along.

SanDiegoSteve Sun Sep 11, 2011 11:41pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry1953 (Post 787139)
The B/R reaching first safely does not remove the force play for runners forced to advance: you frequently see short fly balls to RF drop in and R1 gets forced 9-6 at second because he had to play it half-way. Actually the thing that removes the force is retiring the B/R at first like on a hard grounder to F3 and then F6 has to tag R1 on a 3-U-6 DP.
Yes, I was wrong. Had my head up my butt while posting. Still doesn't apply to a walk off walk.

Larry1953 Mon Sep 12, 2011 12:01am
Quote:
Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve (Post 787170)
Yes, I was wrong. Had my head up my butt while posting. Still doesn't apply to a walk off walk.
Exactly. Rule 4.09(b) is for plays like a bases loaded walk, HBP, catcher's interference where it simply says B/R has to touch first and R3 has to touch the plate for the run to count and the game to end. This rule can even be waived if fans rush the field and interfere. It doesn't matter what R1 and R2 do....although might be interesting of Tony Plush as R1 had a burning desire to go hug R2 and passed him in the baseline while rounding second.

Also, say Tony was the batter and he wanted to celebrate rather than going down to first. So the first base coach picks him up off the pile and directs him to first. Would it be an out for coach's assistance negating the run?


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