Speaking of "time," how would it affect this play in OBR?

Abel hits a ball off the fence, touches 1B, misses 2B, and slides safely into 3B on a close play. The ball shoots through into the dugout. We know that Abel is awarded home but can return to touch 2B while the ball is dead. However, if Abel immediately advances and touches home, he cannot legally return to touch 2B.

But what if the ball hadn't gone out of play and Abel had slid safely into 3B and become tangled with F5? Suppose Abel, possibly injured, asked for time? Would the granting of time then prevent him from being able to return to touch 2B? Would he have to wait until the ump put the ball back in play to attempt to return?

I distinctly remember such a play in American Legion 30+ years ago, but I don't remember what brought it about. The pitcher stepped on the rubber, the ump said, "Play," and the runner on 3B tried to get back to 2B before the appeal there. (He was out easily.)

I guess the question is, Are "time out" and "dead ball" exactly the same?

IMO, a player entering the game for an injured player should be granted the same rights that the injured player had to complete his running responsibilities. In either case of the ball entering the dugout or the official declaring time due to injury, I'd grant the substitute the right to correct the error within the rules.

IMO, calling of "time" causes the ball to become dead.
If continuing play was occurring---including an appeal by the defense for the miss of 2B---then I'd not declare time whether I was the official responsible for the call at 2B or not. I'd still see the appeal occurring.

If the defense did not <u>immediately</u> make such an appeal before time is called, they still retain their right to appeal when the ball becomes alive. Still, it's likely to do them little good if the substitute runner returns to touch 2B during the dead ball situation---a right he also retains.

I've not seen your scenario addressed anywhere by specific caseplay, but that's how I'd rule based on the existing wording and my understanding of the rule.


Just my opinion,

Freix

This is an interesting question.. i think.

1. I KNOW that if we had Ball out of play.. and an AWARD (home).. he could shuffle back to 2nd touch, touch 3rd, touch home, while the DEF looked on unapprovingly and nothing they can do to stop it.

2. BUT play 2. the catcher has the wild throw backed up. Action has ceased. Runner is touching bag with his fingertip and holding up the hand for TIME. GRANTED. Now 1 second AFTER that time the DEF mngr was going to tell Catcher to GO TAG that runner and tell you he missed 2nd (the appeal). IOW - they know.

3. I don't see how that runner can "run bases" although backwards, during a DEAD BALL. I think he is hosed, and must STAY at 3rd. I'm not even convinced he could try to RUN BACK to 2nd upon the call of PLAY. I mean, could he get a NEGATIVE LEAD?

Gotta go, the Mothership is calling again....

You're right, Moosey...........
I can't remember what I've been drinking, but I didn't envision the play correctly.....

Ain't no way I'm letting these guys return when the ball didn't go to DBT....
They certainly wouldn't have gone back if ball remained live......
I'm smellin' fish................

Checking into this one..........be back later........


Freix

Yes, what if a runner is safe at 3B but somehow time gets called. Obviously he can't return during time out (though he can during a mere dead ball). But can he try to return to touch 2B when the ball is put in play, or is he stuck at 3B?

Okay, Moose............I'm back........

IMO, the ability of the runner to return in this instance ONLY APPLIES when being allowed to return due to an award being issued. Otherwise, if he's reached his advance base, no return is going to allowed during a dead ball.

From 7.05 Endnotes:
<ul>If a runner is forced to return to a base after a catch, he must retouch his original base even though, because of some ground rule or other rule, he is awarded additional bases. He may retouch while the ball is dead and the award is then made from his original base.</ul>
In my original reply to Greymule's situation, I was envisioning an award and thinking that either the runner or his sub could still return, which I would allow if the ball went to DBT.

However, without the ball going to DBT, I'd not allow the runner at 3B to go back and correct his error merely because the ball became dead due to calling time. If you let that happen, though, it might sure stop those defenders from asking for time merely because the ball is returned to the infield and they wish to kill play.......LOL.

Good question, Greymule.........
I hadn't seen it or thought about it before, but I'm not letting him go back without a due award after he's touched his next advanced base.


Just my opinion,

Freix

He obviously couldn't attempt to return after the ball becomes live.
The only way the ball could become live would be for the
pitcher to be on the rubber ready to pitch, correct?
Here's rule from rule 7.01:
<ul>If a runner legally acquires title to a base, and the pitcher assumes his pitching position, the runner may not return to a previously occupied base.</ul>
If he attempted return illegally after the ball became live,
I'd call time and declare him out based on 7.01.

<hr width=50%>
Methinks the difference is the ability to go back and retouch during a dead ball only if he is awarded bases and he has not touched an advance base from his location at the time the ball becomes dead.

Maybe some of our wizards want to jump in rather than just lurk.....LOL.


Freix

Thanks, Freix. That makes sense. After the once instance I did see, I asked the ump why the runner wasn't out for running the bases in the reverse order, and he said that the runner was trying not to make a travesty of the game but simply to retouch a base he had missed. Maybe they shouldn't have allowed the attempt, but on the other hand perhaps the play was legal back then. That umpiring crew was very good, and one of them soon embarked on a long MLB career.

Has the OBR/MLB book changed at all since the early 1970s?

I know some rules are different between OBR and FED. In FED the runner could not return to touch 2nd after he had touched 3rd and the ball became dead - for any reason, whether the ball entered dead ball territory or the umpire grants a time out making the ball dead also. NO CAN RETURN.

FED 5-2-2b. a runner may return to a base he left too soon on a caught fly ball or that was not touched during a live ball; EXCEPTION: A runner who is on or beyond a succeeding base when the ball became dead, or advances and touches a succeeding base after the ball became dead, MAY NOT RETURN and shall be called out upon proper and successful appeal.

Is there a website that delineates the OBR and FED differences?

No web site that I know of. Just the BRD.

BRD?
 

Board? Big Red Dog? BJMoose's Record of Decision? Bfair's Righteous Discussion?

These acronyms get me at times. What is BRD?

<i><b>B</b>aseball <b>R</b>ule <b>D</b>ifferences,</i> by Carl Childress. It covers the differences among Fed, NCAA, NAIA, and OBR rules and includes many examples, rulings, and opinions. Available on the officiating.com site. It is indispensable.

Word of the week: acronym: a word formed from the first (or first few) letters of a series of words.

I don't think that's right...

The "runner" in our situation has not "legally acquired title" (he didn't touch 2B! OBR 7.02) to his base, and thus this clause of 7.01 doesn't apply.

P-Sz

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Patrick Szalapski

Quote:

I don't think that's right... The "runner" in our situation has not "legally acquired title" (he didn't touch 2B! OBR 7.02) to his base, and thus this clause of 7.01 doesn't apply. P-Sz

Good point, Pat, but I think that the wording does not support the enforcement principle provided by Evans.
From JEA 7.01 Professional Interpretation:
<ul>When the pitcher assumes his position on the rubber prior to delivery, no runner may return to a previously occupied base. If he attempts to do so, the umpire shall call "time" and declare him out.

Originally adopted to eliminate a trick play and unorthodox strategy, this rule accomplished its purpose. Such shenanigans are unheard of in the modern game.

Umpires should be alert and declare out any runner who should return to his previous base after the pitcher has assumed his position on the rubber. This could most logically happen when the runner felt that he "left too soon" on a tag-up and would attempt to return before an appeal was made on him.</ul>
Evans examples a runner returning to correct a baserunning infraction, but still provides that the runner would be declared out for the action of initiating return after the pitcher takes his position on the rubber.


Just my opinion,

Freix

Actually, Tony, by Fed caseplay 8.2.5a the runner can return, however, his return would not eliminate the umpire upholding the appeal. Still, the appeal must occur. If the defense sees the runner return illegitimately but doesn't know the return is illegitimate, they are apt not to appeal in thinking that the runner corrected his error. If they don't appeal, then the runner keeps his award and the game progresses. The umpire should not stop this runner from attempting return even if he was on or beyond 2B when the ball became dead. This is a play that the defense needs to appeal.


Freix

What?
 

Perhaps you've got a different 8.2.5A than I have. Mine states:

RULING: a runner may not return to a base that he left to soon on a caught fly ball if he was on or beyond a succeeding base when the ball became dead... Upon proper appeal, R1 Shall be called out. If no proper appeal is made by the defense, R1 will be awarded third base. (play involved R1 leaving 1st before the catch was made and being between 2nd and 3rd when the ball is thrown out of play ==> 1st plus 2 bases for the overthrow is ... awarded 3rd.)

I don't see any way that I'm going to let the offense walk backwards around the bases during a dead ball.

Re: What?
 

Read it as "...may not legally return ..." -- that's why he's still out on appeal.

Re: What?
 

Tony, this same issue was discussed in a private forum last year which had a state interpreter as a member. The intepreter spoke with the hierarchy of Fed in Indianapolis and responded the return would be considered "illegitimate" (preferred over the term "illegal"), but would be allowed to occur. The defense, of course, retains their right to appeal the baserunning infraction that was not legitimately corrected, and the official should uphold the appeal if made properly. This is further supported by Kyle McNeely, advisor to Fed rules committee, in a play presented in his article here at eUmpire:
<ul> B1 homers. While slapping palms with his first base coach (didn't we do this already?), he steps over the base. After he rounds second, the coach screams: "Hey, Blue, he missed first." The runner retouches second, touches first, touches second, and continues his trot. Ruling: You say nothing, for the appeal cannot be accept until B1 finishes his award. Afterwards, if the coach does not repeat his appeal, the run counts!</ul>
Note that the illegitimate return <u>is allowed</u> and the onus is on the defense to later appeal after the runner has completed accepting his award.

<hr width=50%>
Due to a ball going to DBT the official must make an award to this runner on or beyond 2B before accepting an appeal. The other issue discussed at the same time dealt with which base this runner's award would be based from. Normally, after any throw from an outfielder going to DBT the award is based from TOT. However, rule 8-3-5 also states:
<ul>When a runner, <b>who is returning to touch a base after a batted ball has been caught</b> [my emphasis] is prevented from doing so because a thrown live ball has become dead (5-1 -1 g), his award shall be from the base he occupied at the time of the pitch.</ul>
So the question arises in this situation where is the award based from <u>if the runner is not attempting return</u> at the time the ball goes to DBT? What if the runner was continuing to third, stopped at 2B, or merely stopped in the basepath abandoning any effort to return---feeling the attempt to return was hopeless from that position. <u>Does the action of the runner actually attempting a return</u> determine which from which base his award will be made?

The state interpreter verified with Indianapolis that, indeed, the rule is written as they desire, and the action of the runner does determine from what location the award is based. I’m told, however, that Childress in interviewing McNeely directed this same question to Kyle whose response was that it would be based from TOP---period. Childress considers his interview response from McNeely as a higher source level than that of a state interpreter. Yet, Childress is also aware that the state interpreter received his response from a higher source than McNeely. So, which ruling should <u>we</u> accept since they are in contradiction?

As for myself, until I hear further I will make my ruling based on the obvious nature of the return. That is, if it’s evident that the runner obviously left 1B early, then I’ll award based on TOP. If not obvious and the runner is not returning, I’ll award based on TOT. IOW, I’ll not allow my award to tip off the defense that a running infraction has occurred. Perhaps that’s a rogue ruling that both is and is not supported by rule and ruling, yet I feel it is the ruling that is in accordance with the spirit and intent of the rule.

Although a third world play, I faced this situation last spring in a Fed tourney game when an errant throw to retire R1, who had not retouched and who remained standing on 2B, entered the 1B dugout. I awarded the runner 3B only. Although the defense was well aware of R1’s obvious infraction, they never later appealed. They must have felt that the award negated their right to appeal---who knows…………


Freix

]

I posed the same question last year, and I thought "initiating a return" was the key. Example: Abel on 1B, no outs. Baker hits a long drive to center.

Play A:

Abel runs on the batted ball and rounds 2B. F8 makes a diving catch. Abel continues to 3B, and the throw to 1B to double up Abel goes into the dugout.

Abel is awarded home, and the defense must appeal to put him out. In Fed, Abel could not return to touch 1B, since when the ball became dead he was on or beyond the next base after the one where he committed the infraction. In OBR, he could return, since he did not advance to another base after the ball became dead.

Play B:

Abel tags up on Baker's drive to center. Abel leaves 1B too soon on F8's diving catch, but nobody seems to notice the infraction. Abel touches 2B and keeps running. He slides safely into 3B, and the throw goes into the dugout.

Abel is awarded home, same as above. The degree of obviousness of the infraction is irrelevant.

Play C:

Abel runs on Baker's blast. Abel is almost to 3B when F8 makes the diving catch. Abel initiates a return, and the throw to double him at 1B goes into the dugout.

In this case, Abel gets only 3B, since he attempted to return to 1B. In OBR, his return is legal. In Fed, unless he had retouched 2B and was between 2B and 1B when the ball became dead, his return is not legal.

In all cases, the defense would still have to appeal the out. The ump does not say, "Abel, you can't return."

Not sure, but I thought NCAA followed OBR on this.

Interesting wrinkle:

Play D:

Abel tags up on Baker's drive. Abel touches 2B and is almost to 3B when the defensive coach screams, "Appeal 1B. He left way too soon." Even though he tagged up properly, Abel still initiates a return and has not yet made it back to 2B when the ball becomes dead.

Do we award the 2 bases from 1B or 2B?

Freix: In your Fed tourney play, by giving the runner only 3B, you announced that he had left 1B too soon, even though everybody already knew it. That would be my problem with awarding only 3B in Play B above.

[Edited by greymule on Feb 28th, 2003 at 11:02 AM]

In your example D above, Greymule, the runner gets home (2 bases from his TOT). The exception of TOP would not apply since no infraction occurred, whether R1 thought there was or not.

<hr width=50%>
IN my situation, the defense and their fans were all yelling for the ball to be thrown to 1B for appeal while everyone associated with the offense---fans, players, coaches---were yelling at R1 to return. The Cleveland City Coucil had already sent an email to R1 telling him to atttempt return. Nimrod R1 was at 2B at TOT and made no attempt whatsoever to return to 1B. IMO, at that point 1B was the obvious base of origin for the appeal, and I awarded 3B.

The defensive coach came out to discuss the award. While I explained to the coach that I needed to make the award for the errant throw, he kept saying "That's not right, Steve......that's just not right." He never once mentioned appeal or that the runner left without retouching (something that was highly obvious during the play). I discussed the play with him between games as he was also playing the following game (loser's bracket). BTW, he lost by one run..........and yes, that runner scored.

<hr width=50%>
And while you've been thinking of plays associated with this thread, what do you do here:
<ul>Batter hits a double, misses 1B en route, but is injured sliding into 2B. Time is called.
Game resumes with F1 on the rubber making appeal play to 1B in which his throw to 1B goes errant, rolling down the 1B line. </ul>
Is R1 allowed to return to correct his error, now that he knows he missed the base and he likely got caught with his hands in the cookie jar?


Freix

Supposedly, he can't go back, because of 7.01. However, that rule does stipulate, "and the pitcher assumes the pitching position," as if to say that the runner can't merely start running back because the pitcher is ready to play. If the pitcher actually does try to appeal and throws the ball away, maybe the runner <i>can</i> return. Never thought of that one.

Here's the question to the WUA:
<ul>With R1 only and no out, batter hits a double but fails to touch 1B en route. R1 goes to 3B. Time is called when the BR is injured sliding into 2B. Play resumes and the pitcher, from the rubber, throws errantly in an appeal at 1B causing the ball to roll down the RF line.

Knowing his goose is pretty well cooked at this time, can R2 return to correct his previous baserunning error, or is he prohibited from return per rule 7.01 comment.

If he cannot, what is the mechanic if R2 attempts to do so? Do you kill the ball thereby prohibiting R3 from scoring, or would you wait until the play is complete thus allowing R3 to score?</ul>
And here's the response:
<ul>When R1 touched second after his double and the ball became dead, he no longer had a chance to correct his miss of first (using 7.10b2, not 7.01). However, he is allowed to do what he wants on the wild appeal throw (7.01 is for someone who made second legally--didn't miss a base-- R2 has an apparent reason to want to return). The ball remains live, R3 can score and R2 can do whatever he wants. The defense can bring the ball back in, appeal, and the appeal is upheld (if it is executed before they make any play on R2).

Thanks for your inquiry!

World Umpires Association</ul>
I can live with that.........
I'm still not sure if I fully understand the technicalities of 7.10b other than the original play, including any return or awards, was complete on BR and the ball became dead. Therefore, no legal return allowed thereafter. Still, it somewhat surprised me that he'd allow the return of R2 (previously BR) to continue when a new play started. I thought the play would have been killed for attempting illegal return (as JEA stipulated in 7.01). Apparently Roder applies that only to meaningless returns.......

I suppose the next question would be what if R2 returned to touch 1B and the defense never appealed, but R2 was unable to advance back to 2B............
My guess would be to then declare him out for illegal return......
I'm gonna get that 7.01 comment in here somewhere.....LOL
Even more interesting if the double occurred with 2 outs.
A defensive appeal could negate R3's run, but with no appeal, I'd end up with a run scored but then a non-force 3rd out. The $hit will hit the fan then with the defense wanting the out on the illegal return before the run scored. So, do you just leave R2 at 1B if the defense doesn't appeal????


Freix





[Edited by Bfair on Mar 1st, 2003 at 09:50 PM]