WP on ball four, does run count?
 

I finally found my copy of Nemec's book and found this interesting OP. Bases loaded, 2 outs with 3-1 count, tie game in the bottom of the 11th. Ball four is a wild pitch and R3 comes home with the apparent winning run. The B/R joins in the celebration at the plate instead of going to first. VM comes out to discuss with PU that B/R is obligated to touch first. PU (Votagglio) says the WP took precedence over the walk and eliminated the B/R's need to go to first. Nemec says this OP is still uncovered by the rules (1994). Rule 7.08 says the B/R must touch first before the other runners are forced to advance but that wording doesn't really seem to address the issue. Is there an appeal at 1B that might constitute the B/R making the third out before he reaches first that would negate the run? Has the umpire manual been revised in the meantime? Thanks.

Why would a wild pitch take precedence over anything? Wild pitch is an official scorer thing - it has nothing to do with the rules of the game, although they probably talk about it in section 10.

Sorry, I meant to type 6.08. Nemec commented that PU was "winging it" but that there was not a provision in the rulebook for how the VT would retire the B/R for failure to comply with 6.08(a).

The umpire directs the batter-runner to first, and if he refuses declares him out.

That makes sense, but what is the mechanic to direct the batter to first other than saying "Ball Four"? And what constitutes refusal? Usually pitchers go directly to first on a walk before putting a warm-up jacket on. Would leaving the dirt circle around the plate while walking to the dugout constitute refusal like on a D3K?

Are you encouraging him?

If you found it to be interesting, I'm sure the rest of us will as well. Thank you for being so considerate and thinking of us.

It is at least as interesting as spending 3 or 4 pages on what is the best shade of gray for an ump's pants, IMHO. But I guess you real umpires have different priorities. From the looks of the way the game is being ump'ed at the MLB level, it certainly shows. But they sure look cute in their blue polos and charcoal gray pants and twin ball sacks. Carry on....

score run
 

Game over.

4.09a states once a run has legally scored, it cannot be erased, no matter how hard one tries.

VM protests game (like Nemec says he should have).

ETA: there are lots of ways "legal runs" can get erased on appeal.
ETA: 4.09(b)...the umpire shall not declare the game over until the runner has touched home and the B/R has touched first [it the situation of a game ending on a bases loaded walk or HBP].

1) You tell him he needs to go touch first.

2) He doesn't.

Your act is getting really old.

I have Nemcec's book - interesting - not a valid source interpretations.

The Sporting News' book used to be considered the key source as it was writtten by Billy Evans - an MLB umpire.. Still has historical value on interpretations.

I assume that's sarcasm. If so, it is certainly misdirected. You continue to brighten this forum and enlighten posters with such amazing posts and supportive opinon by such world recognized experts as David Nemec. I've never understood why MLB hasn't hired him as a rules interpreter and consultant.

Good work.

The run cannot be unscored
 

Remember the ball 4, R2 overruns 3rd base and is tagged out before R3 scores case play? Ruling run scores, out ends the inning.

Same ruling I have in this play, run scores, out at first on appeal. But that would not erase the winning run.

Half remembered something
 

Recently, similar play in state playoff game. Protest on B/R's actions was not allowed to erase winning run. Perhaps someone can provide newspaper clipping.

I also remember a rule that says a run cannot score if the third out is made by retiring the B/R before he touches first.

I think it is a universal consensus that the OBR rule book could be written a lot better. Sometimes it isn't such a bad idea to go outside the box to make an improvement. I recall avidly reading the Bill James Baseball Abstracts when they first came out, what was it, about three decades ago? He was ridiculed and scoffed at. He "never played the game, what could he possibly know?" It turns out he knew a lot and he literally changed the face of the game.

Concerning original op, run would not score

In Larry's play, the out at first (if there is one) is the third out of the inning, so no runs would score. Surely you can see how an out at first is different from a non-force out at third.

Keep playing this song - you're the only one playing it. Looking at the most recent 25 threads, exactly one was about uniform, and one more about equipment. Drop it.

PS - no run. No thought required.

I had nearly this play a couple of years ago and posted it here. Tie game. Bottom 7. R3 with 2 outs. 3-1 count. Ball 4 bounces in the dirt and goes to the backstop. R3 comes in to score.

B/R gets about 20 feet toward 1st base when his dugout (1st base side) empties to celebrate the win. He joins the celebration and never reaches 1st base (and also never makes it to the dugout).

There was much debate as to whether the B/R can be called out for abandonment (and at what point that happens.) Best advice I had from this forum: as soon as I see the dugout empty, yell, "Stop. The game is not over."

Any time you do not like the way this forum runs, you are welcome to go elsewhere.

You are not an umpire so we don't care what your opinions or theories about baseball rules are.

Had one in LL, bottom 6, tie game, sacks juiced. Ball 4 to B1. R3 touches home; dugout erupts. B1 does not touch first, but stays in live ball territory.

I am U2, but I stay on the field, watching B1. Finally, someone tells him to go touch first. As he runs to 1B, F2--honest--throws to F3, who tags B1 before he touches the sack.

As soon as B1 hit the bag, I hightailed it out of there.

In the parking lot, VC (very civilly) asked me why B1 wasn't called out on the tag. I said, "New rule, coach. When a batter gets four balls, he gets to proceed, unmolested, to first base."

Slight chuckle.