Yankees @ Blue Jays
 

Batter for Jays hits a grounder for what could be a 6-3. The throw draws F3 Posada off the bag. B/R oversteps first. Angel Hernandez makes no call. Posada makes a deliberate tag of the bag while looking at Hernandez. Still no call. Posada then jogs down the line to tag B/R who is called out.

Question on the mechanics: I have read some threads that say the B/R "attains" first base when he beats the play - even if he misses the bag - and the umpire is to signal safe so as not to tip off the defense that they need to make the appeal. Secondly, why wasn't the deliberate tag of the bag by F3 enough to make the appeal - it looked like he did it twice. Finally, if there were 2 outs and R3 is this a time play where the run would count or would it be "run does not count when the third out is made on B/R at first?

The video link

Baseball Oddities | NYY@TOR: Posada tags Escobar for the out in odd play - Video | MLB.com: Multimedia

It was actually a 4-3 grounder up the middle. Posada never actually got the tag so the out call could have been a baseline or failure to return to first infraction. If the runner had taken off for 2B, Posada might have thrown down to second (since his first appeal of stepping on the bag did not work). A botched rundown might have allowed the runner to get back to first.

I JUST happened to turn the Yankee game on at that point.

I know is softball the mechanic is not to make a call, and all Posada would have had to do would make what we call a 'live ball appeal' by stepping on the bag or tagging Escobar, so I am assuming baseball is similar. And yes it looks like Hernandez did everything properly...

Your definitely a one-man forum, Larry. Your start the thread, ask the questions and answer them too. You obviously have toooooo much time on your hands.

I believe that if both the ball and the runner are in the vinicity of the base, an appeal is not allowed. The runner must be tagged. Whether or not Angel should have signaled safe at first, I really don't remember what OBR does anymore. HS rules I believe you still signal at first.

Yep. He's "that kid"...and that annoying.

But don't worry, he'll get bored and go away...he always does.

Oh -- the mechanic is different depending on which fielder it was. Now, had it been 5-3, well, then we'd have something to discuss.

Did anyone else notice F3 missed the tag away from the base, too? You see it on the last replay.

Yes I did, and we have all been in that situation where you just expect the easy tag to be made. You ring up the runner and then realize it wasn't made. As in most cases it is accecpted as is but, every once in awhile you get a real good move by a runner and find yourself with a little egg on your face.

I think your timing's a bit quick. :D

Personally, I'm surprised Angel didn't call the runner safe. I was under the impression that a runner will be called safe in this situation and the only time no call would be made is at the plate when a tag of the plate is missed.

Of course, mechanics may have changed (or may be made up on the fly by ML umpires).

Rich,

I believe the "no call" mechanic was correct in this sitch because the throw took F3 off the base and there was, therefore, no tag of 1B to rule on.

Had the throw simply been late and F3 had kept his foot on the bag, then I believe the safe mechanic is called for.

JM

Not sure this is correct. If F3's foot was on the bag but the throw had been late and the B/R reached 1st before the tag of the base, but had not touched 1st base, wouldn't you make the safe call? I think once the B/R acquired 1st, the safe call mechanic should have been given regardless of the proximity of F3.

Let's say there was exactly the same play but with R3, same two out situation. The run would still not count, correct?

What does 4.09(a)(1) say?

True that. Rule 7.08(e) says the runner is out if he OR the base is tagged BEFORE he touches the base. It was confusing why Angel Hernandez did not signal out when Posada made a clear and distinct tag of first while looking at him. Things like "attained base", "relaxed action", "continuous action" are not mentioned in the rule book.

Does every posted legal speed sign say "if you get caught exceeding this speed limit in excess of a certain amount of mph (as determined by the local authorities), then you may receive a ticket, fine, etc."

Someday or one day, or if ever the world gets perfect, were just going to have to go back and rewrite everything so it is crystal clear for everyone. Then again everything will be perfect and everyone will know everything and we won't have to.

Sometimes you just have to umpire. You should try it first and quit being a pain in the arse because you have no life.

One cannot possibly hope to learn American law if one only studies constitutions, statutes and regulations. In fact, the majority of American law is learned from judicial cases (aka "case law") which interpret the statutes, constitutions, regulations, etc.

Likewise, if one only studies the rule book one is missing all of the interpretations (official and otherwise) of those rules found in the various umpire's manuals. (see major league baseball umpire's manual (MLBUM), PBUC Manual, J/R, JEA, etc.)

So Angel Hernandez made the proper call when he did not signal the runner who had "attained" first base but had not touched it when Posada stepped on the bag? A literal reading of the rules says a runner can be retired that way by either the "force mechanic" or an appeal. But I get your point.

That is what is being debated on this and other internet boards. Someone on one of the boards posted an approved ruling from the MLBUM that I believe (but others disagree) covers this situation. Personally, as a result of reading that section of the MLBUM I have changed my initial opinion that "yes" is the correct answer to your question quoted above to "no".

However, my opinion did not change because of the rulebook, it changed because of the language from the MLBUM that was posted.

I do not think signalling nothing was correct. I think he should have signalled "safe". I also think that *if* F3's actions were an appeal, he should have had an out then.

So, it's possible that he did it correctly (either the process has changed *or* what I (and others) read in MLBUM somehow doesn't apply -- and it has to do with some timing issue), or it's possible that he did it incorrectly. Some would say that given the umpire involved, one of those is more likley than the other.

Unless MLB comes out with something, or until another (nearly) identical play happens, we probably won't know.

Your last sentence is so true, and actually a bit of a shame. I fully understand why umpires don't want to be quizzed on their calls, but it would certainly be helpful. With all the games being televised with high scrutiny replay, MLB needs to understand, as you said, that some of these strange calls set a precedent. I don't think it would hurt for ESPN to have the chance to interview an umpire supervisor to ask some of these questions. Otherwise it is just high priests and tabernacles and secret knowledge.

OK, really, I am not trying to be annoying (yeah, right) but here goes. I had proposed an R3 situation with 2 outs. I understand that, by rule the run would not have counted after all the confusion at first. However, the B/R could have made a break for 2B after AH failed to signal an out when Posada distinctly stepped on the bag (darn well knowing that he missed it, that would have been his only chance to stay alive). That probably would have made Posada throw down to second to get the out. If the third out was made at 2B, then I guess the run should count?? The Yankees would have then had to get a "fourth out" appeal at 1B to negate the run, right? Obviously that would not have been necessary if AH had signalled out with the tag of the bag - which he probably should have anyway.

Larry - ENOUGH ALREADY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Fine, MLB won't let us in to the holy tabernacle and I can't present cases here. Please, by all means, get back to things that really matter like the merits of heather gray versus charcoal gray pants.

Right after you admit that maybe, just maybe, you aren't the rules expert you think you are.

You need a bigger font.

You are absolutely correct. You are right about everything. You have a phenomenal understanding of the rules and every possible situation that has occurred since 1889. No one can match your intellect or grasp of baseball rules, tradition and folklore. We are extremely blessed that you have come to this site to enlighten us. Thank you.

Happy?

When we post, we say what has to be said and move on. You, on the other hand, go on, and on, and on about nonsense and whimsical situations. No one says you have to leave, just answer a question and be done with it.

It's the same as every other missed base appeal. Couldn't be simpler and doesn't need much discussion.

If the runner misses the bases you still need to give a signal to let him know if he beat the ball or not.. so in this video Angel should have given a safe as he beat the ball/ posada didnt touch the base... and there should have been a safe , off the bag mechanic... after this the defense can appeal the runner missing the base ( better do this before he reaches 1st)..but what can I say..LOL

What? I couldn't hear you; my wife was yelling in my other ear. :D

The Bobby Valentine Rule?
 

Apparently from ESPN, the original situation played out when Mr Bobby Valentine was a manager. AH made the correct NO call as Posada appealed from 1st base. The runner must be tagged while off base.

What about from the MLBUM.....

Interpretation of Rule 7.01: Appeal Plays: Approved Rulings (12) Batter-runner hits a ground ball and beats the play at first base but misses the bag. Ruling: The proper mechanic is for the umpire to call the runner safe, indicating he beat the play. If the defense appeals by tagging the runner (or base) and appealing that the runner missed first base before the runner returns to first base, the batter-runner would be declared out.

Posada did pull his foot which might change this........

Joel

I don't think it changes anything other than the addition of an "off the bag" mechanic to indicate why the batter-runner is safe. The batter-runner still beat the "play" at 1st base.