11 year-old pitchers under NFHS rules.

while practicing inside pick off moves to 2nd base at our last practice, a few coaches started to wonder about two aspects of when would would it be called a balk; one - where in the rules is the following declared a balk, and two - when would/should umpires call the following a balk: the latest point in the delivery from the set position that the pitcher can turn to second and make a pick without being called for a balk?

from the set position our pitchers do a good job of bringing their free leg straight up to a balance point and then letting it fall straight down before delivering to the plate. some coaches say to pick to second the latest the move can be made is at the balance point, while some said the latest was after the leg dropped back down from the balance point as long as he didn't move toward the plate, but dropped and moved to second.

i have the 2003 NFHS rules and can't find anything that specifically addresses this point and wanted to get some expert opinions.

thanks for any insight,
-dave, just a coach

The pitching rules say nothing about a requirement to allow a pitcher to hang his free leg. The pitcher is free to step to a base from the rubber until such time as he commits to the plate with a motion naturally associated with his pitch. When he elects to make that step to a base, it must be "directly" to the base. That step needs to be within provided/accepted guidelines of no hesitation and gaining distance and direction. A step "directly" to 2B does not include any stoppage or hesitation of the nonpivot foot (or leg) in the air. <b>The stoppage or hesitation of that leg is an action used in F1's motion to deliver the pitch</b>. It is the normal starting point of his weight shift to the plate.

You don't want to hang or hesitate the leg if I'm your umpire.
As far as I'm concerned, hesitating the leg followed by the step to 2B is a discontinuous move that will be balked. IOW, pick up the free foot and pull it through, but don't hesitate it at the top and then step to 2B or I'm balking it. The hesitation is the indication of reversing the leg to the plate and his motion to pitch.

Unfortunately, too many officials lack personal confidence in their abilities to call a balk unless it's seen from Cleveland. That way they provide few surprises to the crowd. Still, they are the ones allowing the more refined but illegal pickoff moves to exist (like the one you are attempting to refine now). It's those moves that gain illegal advantages on the opponents; not the illegal moves seen from Cleveland. Even the runner has seen what those from Cleveland have seen and is able to safely return to the base. Why should I, the trained eye, lower my decisions to the level of the untrained eye merely to keep the untrained eye from having surprises? Did we all learn a little about the NFL's "tuck rule" when it happened and the correct decision was made?

When you are driving and you run through yellow at a signal light you should not be surprised if you get a ticket for running that light. You are pressing the limit. Some law enforcement officers will see the act differently---especially if they know you are a repeat offender attempting to gain an advantage.

<b>When pitchers "press the limit" of the pitching rules (apparently as coached), then they should not be surprised when they are balked.</b>


Just my opinion,

Freix

bfair,

obviously my question(s) weren't clear enough. i don't agree with the "hesitation" move by hanging the free leg and that's not my concern. the concern is not in the speed, or lack thereof, just before moving to second, but when in the motion can the move to second last be made? is it at the balancing point (without hesitation :)) or after the leg has fallen from the balancing point (without hesitation) and has reached the ground but hasn't moved toward home, just like our pitchers do in their natural motion when pitching to home?

another way to paint the picture would be SIMILAR to when the pitcher would make a move to second after he has come to the set position and his hands have come together, but he hasn't lifted his free leg at all and then makes the move from there to second. i'm sure most umpires have no problem with that, but now i'm talking at the other end of the free leg moving up to the balance point and then back down to the ground and before moving out toward home, could the move to 2nd be made then?

thanks,
-dave

http://www.cbs.sportsline.com/u/base...ers/rules8.htm

* (c) At any time during the pitcher's preliminary movements and until his natural pitching motion commits him to the pitch, he may throw to any base provided he steps directly toward such base before making the throw. The pitcher shall step "ahead of the throw." A snap throw followed by the step directly toward the base is a balk.

- - - So, that foot has to touch the ground prior to the throw: AND, in the direction of 2nd base for it to be legal.

obviously my answer(s) weren't clear enough.

<font size=+2>A pitcher pressing the limits of the rules should not be surprised if a balk is called.</font size=+2>


Freix

"You don't want to hang or hesitate the leg if I'm your umpire."

I dont think Bfair could have been any clearer and I agree with him 100%. And I dont live in Cleveland. The leg either comes down in the direction of a base or it does'nt, then the pitcher better be throwing to the plate if it does'nt.

The rules say nothing about a "hanging leg" however, any umpire that lets the pitcher get away with deceiving the runner by that move, should be exiled to Cleveland.

If your looking for the scienitific explanation try this , "the exact millisecond that a pitcher hangs his free limb for a time duration longer than normal or does not step in the direction of his throw or feint, is the millisecond at which we will be calling dead ball, Balk" NFHS.

Inside Pickoff? Are there outside pickoffs too?

Don't make it hard
 

What in the world are we doing talking about a hanging leg with 11 year olds.

My sugguestion would be spend more time working on throwing strikes and hitting your spots.

As far as your questions, its really not that hard. The umpire is looking (or should be) at where his foot steps.

If he steps to second he may throw. If not, then he must pitch.

Everything else is just preliminary etc.,

Thanks
David

in my first post i mentioned nothing about a hanging leg and that is not what i'm questioning, so please, no more responses about a hanging leg. i understood before and understand a lot more now that umpires don't like it...

in the most simple way i can think to put my concern: in the normal set position pitching motion the leg goes up and then the leg goes down, then out to home. my question is: when the leg goes up and then the leg goes down (with no hesitation in between) and then moves to second, is that legal?

thanks, if your reply is not about hanging legs,
-dave

distance and direction
 

If the leg comes down in the same manner as if the pitcher pitched, I have him committed to pitch. If he then changes that direction to step toward a base, You now have R3 to contend with. >:)

"my question is: when the leg goes up and then the leg goes down (with no hesitation in between) and then moves to second, is that legal?"

This may be picky but if you remove the word "then " from your above question, it is legal. It either comes down in the direction of a base or the plate, or it does'nt. Any other way it is a balk.

blarson and jicecone,

thanks, your answers are what i suspected and are the type of definitive information to take back to our team.

also, i would think the conventional jump pivot pick to second is considered an "outside" move since the proper way to execute it is to turn in the opposite direction of the inside move that has been described. i.e., for RHP, inside being clockwise and outside being counter-clockwise.

thanks again,
-dave

Ugh
 

11 year olds with PICK OFF MOVES? Ugh... stealing allowed at that level.. PASS.. Nothing like those 38-27 games to keep the interest of the officials...

Re: Ugh
 

BJM,

Did CDP and they play stealing at the 10U level on 70ft diamond. I do agree with you for the most part, epecially for everyday (rec) level of play I agree, but at CDP, there were some pretty great games.

Bob

davekoch
 

"also, i would think the conventional jump pivot pick to second is considered an "outside" move since the proper way to execute it is to turn in the opposite direction"

IF you are saying a "jump turn" to second base (like a jump turn to first base)that move is impossible without balking.

Stand in your office and go through the move. In order to get turned completely and gain direction there "must" be a flex in the legs to perform the "jump". This is the start of the pitching motion and is a balk for failing to complete the pitch.

A jump turn cannot be done legally to second base. It is the law of gravity that is involved.

Tim C,

your described motion is requried for the jump pivot to first or second for a RHP. are you saying when done to second it's a balk, but not when done to first?!?

we've been doing the jump pivot to second for a long time and never had it called a balk. what's even better is the pitcher doesn't have to throw to second like he does to first on the jump pivot.

hoping Tim C was just pulling my leg,
-dave

I much agree, Dave............
The pitcher is allowed to turn in either direction when going to 2B, however, he is not allowed to hesitate at either corner base when making that move to 2B. I'd find it difficult to think that it would even be possible to hesitate at a corner base <u>during a jump turn</u>.

As for the knee buckling during the pickoff motion,
J/R best describes how it should be judged:
<ul>R1. After coming set, a right-handed pitcher's right knee quickly buckles before he throws to first: if the buckling is a separate, discontinuous motion before the motion to throw, there is a balk. However, if the buckling is merely part of a fluid and continuous motion to throw, there is no balk.</ul>

Let's face it, it's damn near impossible to throw effectively to any base if not allowed to flex your leg (which includes buckling of the knee).
Amazingly enough, the concept of continuity once again arises in determining a balk or not...........

And by the way........ Tim (Mr. IITBTSB) was pulling your leg, Dave.



Freix



[Edited by Bfair on Feb 18th, 2003 at 04:06 AM]

Personally, as a coach (HS Varsity), I have always taught our pitchers to come set with a slightly bent back leg. Since starting that, we've only had two balks called on us in about 5 years.

Dave
 

For YEARS I have been the person that states:

"It Is Impossible To Balk To Second Base!"

Don't always take everything I say as serious.

davekoch

Coach, I can't immagine why anyone would want to teach 11 year olds FED ball with its annual rule changes, errors, and general prostitution of real baseball, but the answers to your original post can be found in the OBR.

8.01(C) states: "At any time during the pitcher's preliminary movements and until his natural pitching motion COMMITS him to the pitch, he may throw to any base...

When a pitcher commits himself to the plate, he can hardly position himself to throw to second. Therefore, as his free leg is dropping down, he has a choice of "committing" to the pitch or pivoting around to second. It is real easy to see a committed pitch aborted in favor of a pickoff movement. Let's allow the OBR to further explain.

8.05(a)"If there is a runner, or runners,it is a balk
when-" (case book comment) "If a lefthanded or righthanded pitcher swings his free foot past the back edge of the pitcher's rubber, he is required to pitch to the batter EXCEPT THROW TO SECOND BASE ON A PICK-OFf PLAY."

If you are teaching your 11 year old pitchers this move, you can imagine that they will either have to swing their free leg in a 180 degree movement to enable a step toward second base or while their foot is hanging over the back of the rubber, pivot and step directly to second base. The 180 degree pivot is not a commitment to the plate. That requires the free leg to glide out toward the plate.

Either way coach, if your pitcher has "committed" himself to the plate, he isn't going to be able to step to second.

One of the other posters said that you can't balk to second.
Except for the step toward, I think he might be right.

[Edited by wpiced on Mar 1st, 2003 at 05:52 PM]

No thinking allowed Marty,
 

It IS impossible to balk to second base.

Can't be done.

The "Orignial"

Tee

Well now, come on Tee. Can't you just immagine an 11 year old failing to step toward second base. I duno, do they even have THAT much coordination at 11?

Tee,

What's even more important, I would like to see kids learn real baseball, perhaps with the exception of LL. That is a good instructional league to about age 10, but if LL tried to play Pony or other youth league that use OBR, well, there just isn't any contest.

Marty,
 

They don't "need" to step towards second base.

Not in the rules.

Tee

"That is a good instructional league to about age 10, but if LL tried to play Pony or other youth league that use OBR, well, there just isn't any contest."

Heck I don't think were pushing these kids hard enough now days. I say LL until your 6 and the pony and HS until your 12. By then their ready for the big show. Just think of all the school taxes we could save by getting these kids out into the real world by the time they're 15. Im all for it. They gotta learn to go out in that real world sooner or later anyway.

Tee,

I know you said in your ealier post not to take everything you say seriously. So I take your most recent post about not stepping to second base on a pickoff with a grain of salt. But, as a matter of fact, in my umpire's association, that comment might disbar you from an assignment all season.

Here's and idea! Check out OBR 8.01(c) and prepare a summary for our readers. It will be educational and informative.

Marty,
 

In all seriousness:

F1 can step towards F6 or F4 and throw.

He is not required to step towards second.

It is not like first or third base as he can throw to a fielder that is not near the base and not balk.

IIITBTSB

Now for your challenge:

According to JEA:

My summary:

Up to and including 1899 pitcher's could not feint to any base.

The rule change in 1900 allowed feints to all bases but first base (remember Home Plate is just that a plate and not a base under this rule).

The 1950 rule update then stated that a pitcher must step directly towards the base.

Now we move to 8.05 (c) and we learn that through "custom and usage" this "direct step" changes to "45* of a direct straight line to the base.

My summary of the rule continues:

Now that we all know that F1 does not have to throw the ball during any pickoff attempt at second base and we also know that many of the pickoff plays at second are "timing" plays between the pitcher and infielder we also know that a pickoff can be attempted to a fielder "not near the base" (not like a play at first base where F3 position CAN determine if the play is a balk or not) we see the the pitcher OFTEn will not be stepping anywhere near a "direct line" to the base.

Sorry Marty my review of this rule (and the authoritive sources listed) don't support your ruling.

You asked me to do the review and I did.

BTW, this same discussion has come up each of the last four years on one internet umpire webpage or another.

Tee

[Edited by Tim C on Mar 2nd, 2003 at 10:35 PM]

Marty, what you need to realize is that Tee takes personal pride in having the phrase "it is impossible to balk to second base" attributed to him. So much pride that he prefers to mislead newer umpires who don't fully understand HIS MEANING of that phrase.........so let me tell you Tee's meaning..........

While it is quite possible for a balk to be made when making a pickoff motion to 2B, Tee will always attribute that balk to some other reason or base. That is, if RHF1 was to throw to 2B without any step with his non-pivot foot, Tee would attribute it as a balk for starting a pitching motion and not throwing to home---yet it is a balk in his move to 2B. If the RHF1 was to step with his free foot moreso to 3B than to 2B and feint or deliver to 2B, Tee would attribute the balk to stepping to 3B (an unoccupied base)---yet the pitcher has balked in his motion to 2B.

Marty, Tee plays games on words to support his notoriety of his statement, and he does so at the expense of others less understanding of what he actually means. In doing so, he does a disservice to the game of baseball. While he expects others to respect his knowledge and experience, I disrespect his promotion of his little play on words that can lead others into believing they should never call a balk on a pitcher making a move to 2B.

It is quite possible for pitcher to balk while making a pickoff move to 2B.


Freix

Steve, Steve, Steve
 

Here we go again.

IIITBTSB.

A pitcher DOES NOT necessarily need to gain direction when throwing to second:

An example:

Pull hitting RH hitter at the plate.

F6 is playing "in the hole" (strongly positioned towards third base).

R2 is taking a lead.

F1, with his foot in contact with the pitcher's plate, throws to F6 (located much more closely to third than second) where F6 runs R2 back to second.

F1 stepped no where close to a "direct line" or even a 45* angle to second and he DID NOT BALK.

My statement stands. While a pitcher can easily balk with a runner at second, he cannot balk TO second base.

Steve, take out a copy of a "to scale" field. Note that the pitcher's mound is located more closely to second base than home plate.

Go to your documents and you'll see that the famous 45* angle in taken from the pitcher's plate and ALL documentation relates to first and third base . . . now take that diagram and figure out "where exact" the 45* angle would fall if you were marking it too second base . . . interesting, no?

As an unauthortive opinion I contend that there is NO requirement to gain direction when throwing to second base from the pitcher's plate during a pick off attempt.

BTW, Steve I DID NOT coin the phrase "It Is Impossible To Balk To Second Base" -- it was coined by the "true" authoritive opinion on rules that you dislike so much.

I just stole it!

And always remember, Carl Childress once called me, "The Most Dangerous Umpire on the Internet!"


As another umpire is known to say,

Just My Opinion,

(The Original) & Ever Slimming,

Tee

[Edited by Tim C on Mar 3rd, 2003 at 09:09 AM]

Living in Fear
 

Guys, I gotta say, considering the subject is ELEVEN year old pitchers... AKA little bitty kids with soprano voices... the verbage (balancing point??) of that post really frightens me.

I don't think there would be enought time in the DAY to teach 11 year olds how to throw the ball over the plate.

Bfair,

Thank you for your post. Tee's craziness didn't deserve a reply. He reminded me of one of my law professors on a Monday morning after his usual Sunday night binge. When I asked him to explain the meaning of OBR 8.01(c), and he replied with his unresponsive post, I fully understood why his Profile Biography was an "X".

I would hope that this demeanor doesn't carry onto the diamond where people have to depend on his knowledge of the game -- and I am convinced that Tee knows the game.

Tee is totally incorrect in saying or implying the pitcher need not step if throwing or feinting to 2B <u>from the pitching rubber</u>. There must be a step with the nonpivot foot if the move is from the rubber. If he steps to 1B or 3B from the rubber yet throws or feints to 2B, it is a balk.

Evans in JEA 8.05(c) states:
<ul><b>Customs and Usage:</b> For practical enforcement purposes, stepping directly means stepping within 45 degrees of a direct, straight line to the base. In other words, the pitcher is NOT stepping MORE toward a different base than the one to which he is throwing.</ul>
Please note, Tee, it doesn't limit the bases to 1B and home or 3B and home. If stepping more toward another base than to the one which he is throwing or feinting, a balk is committed---and that includes 2B.

It's a judgment call as to where he is stepping.
And while it's more difficult to balk to 2B due to the allowances provided by umpire judgment, it's still definitely possible.


Freix


BTW, Tee, I'll not add the IIITBTSB to the list of "misses" until credit is claimed---but it wouldn't surprise me.....

Marty,
 

When did this turn personal. I am neither crazy nor have I been on a binge.

I have worked pretty high levels of baseball and have never had any difficulties with those games.

No matter how Steve works around it the plays that I described in my last example are correct.

Because F1 is NEVER required to throw the ball in a pickoff at second base he is NOT limited to the directional dictates of the rule.

That is my position and it will not change.

Steve, a miss is a good as a smile, at times.

Tee

Tee, please don't take my post personally. None of your posts were responsive to mine, and I suppose I am used to direct replies rather that meandering. Your scenarios are pointless within the context of my question to you. Remeber the very first post about when is the motion to second base (by an 11 year old?) a balk? You were nonreponsive then as you were in defining OBR 8.01(c).

Words have meaning and conveyance, and since this is a public forum, others may become confused by your comments, but certainly I do not want them confused by mine. Soooo, the beat goes on. You prefer to stick to your guns (that's ok), and I will allow my posts to speak soley for me.

Coach Dave,

I hope all this silly banter hasn't turned you off nor made you sorry that you ever asked the question.

It's been fun and has hopefully made every reader stop and think.

Marty:
 

I am going to make one more legitimate attempt to bring you to the dark side, OK!

F1 (Righthander) is in the set position with R2 (only - for this example).

F6 and F4 are darting "in and out" trying to hold R2 close to the base.

His lead grows.

F1 turns to throw to second and finds the base uncovered so he does not throw at all (on this example I don't care where he steps). No balk, correct?

Same situation:

F1 turns to throw to second to second. Finds "no one home" so he throws to F6 who is in his "normal" position not near the base. The step is directly towards F6 and NOT the base. No balk, correct -- he didn't even have to throw the ball so why would it be a balk.

Slightly different situation:

R2 and R3. Infield in -- in fact F6 is standing next to R2 on the third base side of R2. He is even with him.

F1 steps 1/2 way betwix F6 and the base at third and fires to F6 who applies a tag to "napping" R2. No balk, correct? I mean there is a play (that is important).

So Marty, crazy as you may consider me . . . or getting over a bout of binge drinking that is the logic taken by the people on "my side" of this issue.

Now unlike you, I will allow you the respect of what you call and only laugh at the ISSUE in my mind when it occurs.

Last, if my profile is actual of interest to you or anyone I certainly will update it if necessary.

Tee

Re: Marty,
 

Tee, this statement is absolutely wrong if a move is made to 2B <u>from the rubber</u>.
While you can masquerade whatever <u>you</u> want to judge as being a legal step to 2B vs. elsewhere, the "need" to step <u>is a requirement</u> when the move is made from the rubber---reference rule 8.05(c).

Before long you'll be telling me that in NCAA that it's legal to make a feint from the rubber to any base without first stepping there.........Lah, me.


Freix

Hmmm,
 

"Before long you'll be telling me that in NCAA that it's legal to make a feint from the rubber to any base without first stepping there.........Lah, me."

Why would I say that?

Strange example.

Tee

Freix, Tee

I am compelled to say that I love you both. I agree with one of you and disagree with the other, BUT in any event, I had to put on my thinking cap -- and that is why I have joined this discussion board.

I hope others have enjoyed it too, and have also had to think a little.

Thank you gentlemen.

<b>I agree with one of you and disagree with the other, </b>

Of course. That's the easy part. Now, tell us which is which. ;)