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-   -   Is this obstruction? (https://forum.officiating.com/baseball/72816-obstruction.html)

MD Longhorn Tue Jun 21, 2011 01:16pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry1953 (Post 767469)
It would seem the same would apply to a THROWN BALL.
No. Of course not. I think you would benefit greatly from a clinic, whether you want to umpire or not. You seem to have read many of the rules - but no one has taught you how to put them together correctly. This comes from clinics, and then from experience.

Larry1953 Tue Jun 21, 2011 01:17pm
Edited to add: a distinction between a batted ball versus a thrown ball once it has gone past the fielder.... I know there are big distinction before the ball has passed the fielder...

Adam Tue Jun 21, 2011 01:18pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry1953 (Post 767480)
Well, jeesh, it would have been awful easy to have said there was a difference between a fielder in the act of fielding a batted ball versus a thrown ball. I seriously doubt there is a distinction, at least at the LL level, now or 15 years ago. The rule refers to fielding A BALL that has gone past a fielder (not specifying whether it was a thrown ball or a batted ball) and it does so immediately after a lot of verbiage about a fielder setting up for a THROWN ball. They just happened to give an example of a fielder missing a batted ball, but that necessarily mean that such an example was meant to exclude THROWN balls.

If an umpire has attended a clinic or has a casebook reference that instructs umpires to make a distinction between thrown and batted balls I'd be delighted to have the reference. I'm just trying to get the call right when I volunteer to ump next year and, as it stands, I think I have the LL rulebook on my side.
I deleted my comment because I thought it was unnecessarily harsh. That said, you really have two choices.

1. Plug through the book all by your lonesome and be sure of yourself.

2. Plug through the book and take the learned advice from the umpires here on the forum (or other umpires to whom you have access) on the nuances of various rule and how they are supposed to apply to a real game.

Larry1953 Tue Jun 21, 2011 01:26pm
:mad:
Quote:
Originally Posted by mbcrowder (Post 767483)
No. Of course not. I think you would benefit greatly from a clinic, whether you want to umpire or not. You seem to have read many of the rules - but no one has taught you how to put them together correctly. This comes from clinics, and then from experience.
Mike, I will certainly go to a clinic as soon as I can. But the rule in question ONLY says a fielder in the act of fielding "A BALL". From my primitive understanding of the game a fielder can field two types of balls in the field of play: a THROWN ball and a BATTED ball. It would have been very simple for the rulemakers to have added BATTED ball or batted ball and thrown ball if they wanted to make a distinction between the kind of ball that got past the fielder and his impeding the runner VERY LIKELY causing obstruction.

mbyron Tue Jun 21, 2011 01:30pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry1953 (Post 767469)
I was wondering that myself. Still the LL rulebook has and had the "once the ball has passed the fielder" example. The specific example pertained to a missed ground ball - a batted ball. It would seem the same would apply to a THROWN BALL. Especially when the fielder was 10 feet in front of 3B in a rundown situation and the contact prevented the runner from getting back to the bag.
For a thrown ball, the fielder is liable for obstruction if he does not have the ball (FED) or is not "in the act of fielding" the ball (OBR). If a throw gets past a fielder, then he is not in the act of fielding a throw; he is chasing a loose ball, and he is thus liable to be called for obstruction.

I'm not really sure what your question is (despite your many words), but I hope that helps! :)

Larry1953 Tue Jun 21, 2011 01:37pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaqwells (Post 767485)
I deleted my comment because I thought it was unnecessarily harsh. That said, you really have two choices.

1. Plug through the book all by your lonesome and be sure of yourself.

2. Plug through the book and take the learned advice from the umpires here on the forum (or other umpires to whom you have access) on the nuances of various rule and how they are supposed to apply to a real game.
Well, Rich told me that LL does not have an "in act of fielding" clause and I think that interpretation is clearly wrong as I explained above. The only degree that LL does not have an "in the act of fielding" cause in this situation is to prevent (specifically) the catcher from setting up in the baseline in front of the plate and contend he did not obstruct because he was in the act of fielding a throw. I will go to my grave knowing I am correct on that.

bob jenkins Tue Jun 21, 2011 01:45pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry1953 (Post 767489)
:mad:

Mike, I will certainly go to a clinic as soon as I can. But the rule in question ONLY says a fielder in the act of fielding "A BALL". From my primitive understanding of the game a fielder can field two types of balls in the field of play: a THROWN ball and a BATTED ball. It would have been very simple for the rulemakers to have added BATTED ball or batted ball and thrown ball if they wanted to make a distinction between the kind of ball that got past the fielder and his impeding the runner VERY LIKELY causing obstruction.
Two of the first things you will learn are:

1) There are 234 (or some such) "known errors" in the OBR (and I'd guess many of them get through to the LL book)*.

2) The book doesn't always say what it means or mean what it says.

* -- Yes, it would be nice if they'd fix them. That's unlikely. The book is written only for MLB, they just let other leagues use them, the problems aren't really problems at that level, so if you want to use the book, deal with it.

Adam Tue Jun 21, 2011 01:46pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry1953 (Post 767495)
Well, Rich told me that LL does not have an "in act of fielding" clause and I think that interpretation is clearly wrong as I explained above. The only degree that LL does not have an "in the act of fielding" cause in this situation is to prevent (specifically) the catcher from setting up in the baseline in front of the plate and contend he did not obstruct because he was in the act of fielding a throw. I will go to my grave knowing I am correct on that.
And you can do that, or you can listen to umpires who have worked state championship games after 20-30 or more years of workinb baseball games.

Larry1953 Tue Jun 21, 2011 01:58pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mbyron (Post 767492)
For a thrown ball, the fielder is liable for obstruction if he does not have the ball (FED) or is not "in the act of fielding" the ball (OBR). If a throw gets past a fielder, then he is not in the act of fielding a throw; he is chasing a loose ball, and he is thus liable to be called for obstruction.

I'm not really sure what your question is (despite your many words), but I hope that helps! :)
Thanks MBYRON. You might huddle up with some of the other umps on here and clarify that to them as well because we have gotten off on several tangents on a rather clearly written rule.

So, what is your call: F5 jumps to catch a throw from F2 in a rundown situation. It deflects off his glove into LF and he lands on his feet 10 feet down the line from the bag where he was originally stationed for the rundown. R3 is running back to the bag - plants right foot, plants left foot then collides with F5 who obviously does not have possession of the ball since it is well on its deflected course way to LF?

Larry1953 Tue Jun 21, 2011 02:07pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins (Post 767499)
Two of the first things you will learn are:

1) There are 234 (or some such) "known errors" in the OBR (and I'd guess many of them get through to the LL book)*.

2) The book doesn't always say what it means or mean what it says.

* -- Yes, it would be nice if they'd fix them. That's unlikely. The book is written only for MLB, they just let other leagues use them, the problems aren't really problems at that level, so if you want to use the book, deal with it.
LOL, Bob, nice point! One can't help but be reminded of the Pirates of the Caribbean scene:
Elizabeth: Wait! You have to take me to shore. According to the Code of the Order of the Brethren...
Barbossa: First, your return to shore was not part of our negotiations nor our agreement so I must do nothing. And secondly, you must be a pirate for the pirate's code to apply and you're not. And thirdly, the code is more what you'd call "guidelines" than actual rules. Welcome aboard the Black Pearl, Miss Turner .

Larry1953 Tue Jun 21, 2011 02:33pm
Bob, I guess one of the things that y'all teach or are taught at the clinics is that "a fielder cannot be expected* to go "'poof'". That has been said in several posts in several threads here and on other sites. I could also have expected the catcher to have made a better throw. I could have expected F5 to have caught the ball (where I am sure R3 would have been called for MC for the collision if the ball was knocked loose). The inferior play of the defense ended up putting the offense at a distinct disadvantage since the R3 was prevented to return to third. Incompetence should rarely be rewarded. If common sense and fair play are taught at these clinics, then I would think it would be strongly suggested to call this obstruction.

*(odd that the well-respected ump at the Texas-ASU game could not have "expected" the B/R to go to 1B after ball four but, hey, they are more like guidelines than rules I guess)

MD Longhorn Tue Jun 21, 2011 02:34pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry1953 (Post 767495)
Well, Rich told me that LL does not have an "in act of fielding" clause and I think that interpretation is clearly wrong as I explained above. The only degree that LL does not have an "in the act of fielding" cause in this situation is to prevent (specifically) the catcher from setting up in the baseline in front of the plate and contend he did not obstruct because he was in the act of fielding a throw. I will go to my grave knowing I am correct on that.
Look.... I'm not trying to tell you that Rich has never ever made a mistake. But PLEASE trust me when I tell you that when what Rich says differs from what you think... you are 99.9% of the time going to be wrong. Please don't go to your grave this early, sir... but you are dead wrong.

Try posting the actual words (and numbers) of the rules you are not understanding.

Larry1953 Tue Jun 21, 2011 02:58pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mbcrowder (Post 767510)
Look.... I'm not trying to tell you that Rich has never ever made a mistake. But PLEASE trust me when I tell you that when what Rich says differs from what you think... you are 99.9% of the time going to be wrong. Please don't go to your grave this early, sir... but you are dead wrong.

Try posting the actual words (and numbers) of the rules you are not understanding.
Mike, I quoted the definition of obstruction and all the stuff about "in the act of fielding" in post 9 above. Rich came back in post 10 with the "poof" ruling. I am sorry if not posting the "guideline" number. I thought you guys would have already known it. It is 7.06.

Larry1953 Tue Jun 21, 2011 03:11pm
Mike, the LL modification apparently came about in 2002. I don't have access to an edition at or after that date and e-editions from LL are by subscription only now. In another similar forum (baseball-excellence.com) a post said it was 7.06 (b) Note 2. They didn't C&P the wording so I dont know exactly what it says. I had posted this above as well. I hope that helps and it would be great if someone had access to 7.06 (b) Note 2 so we can see what it says. Apparently it was to prevent the catcher from setting up for a throw up the baseline.

bob jenkins Tue Jun 21, 2011 03:14pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry1953 (Post 767509)
(where I am sure R3 would have been called for MC for the collision if the ball was knocked loose).
If R3 would have been called for MC if the ball was knocked loose, then he should have been called for MC in your play.

As I envisioned your play, it was likely OBS. It could have been a trainwreck. It *was* HTBT.

On the "act of fielding" issue. In OBR, a fielder can block the base if he's in "the act of fielding" a throw. In LL (I think -- I don't work LL), it used to be that way. I think they've removed that so he now has to have the ball.

That said, that rule generally applies only when a fielder is setting up to block the base. If a throw takes him into the path, then it's (usually) nothing.


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