Boy....I don't see anyone taking a chance on commenting about this...

Well, commenting on this surely won't hurt my chances of becoming a Major League Umpire. First, he deserves to be punished for making his own travel arrangements when specifically told not to. Then, he should be further punished for using an ethnic slur and a gender slur toward
a person in umpiring administration (or anybody). At the very least, he was not too smart to be recorded. IMO

Speaking as a Jew b@#*&%d, I consider Froemming to be a fat anti-semite. But alas, anti-semitism doesn't fatally discredit the peace movement, the academic establishment, Jesse Jackson, Hillary Clinton, Al Sharpton, or the looney left. So it won't likely hurt Froemming.

Bruce should feel lucky he only got a 10 day slap on the wrist. Any other job he would have been canned.

Interesting comment, insatty. My own feeling, albeit from the perspective of a Gentile, is that anti-Semitism is generally quite frowned upon in the U.S.—<i>unless</i> it comes from the Loony Left. (Europe is another story, as I'm sure you know.)

Since Bruce Froemming is not one of the Loony Left (just lower-case loony), his remark may well end his umpiring career. His one chance lies in hurriedly joining some Lefty group and claiming that what he said stemmed from being distraught over the plight of the Palestinians. I suspect he'd soon find himself in the loving arms of the Left and then comfortably ensconced in a first-class seat (can't imagine him in coach) to Japan.

He could then hit the Ivy League lecture circuit.

You are unfortunately too correct, Greymule. I wonder what Froemming would say to Shawn Greene or David Eckstein if either questions his calls.

Al Campanis was forced out of baseball for a relatively innocuous remark about blacks, but Froemming gets a slap on the wrist for an ant-Semitic and anti-women remark. Amazing.

"Since Bruce Froemming is not one of the Loony Left". No, he's one of the Loony Right. Hitlerism is alive and sick in the USA.

Bob

I do not agree that calling a woman a "b itch" is necessarily anti-woman. Plenty of women (even aggressive feminists) call other women b itches. I don't know any Jews who call other Jews "kikes," though.

As for Al Campanis, his remarks were grossly misconstrued, but he should have known that whenever the question involves race, one must respond with canned, politically correct platitudes. The only reason a reporter ever asks anyone about racial matters is to evoke a controversial response. Campanis, who was instrumental in getting Jackie Robinson into MLB, fell into the trap.

The Left likes to place Hitler, an anti-Communist authoritarian, on the Right, and that's what's taught in our schools. But as many historians have pointed out, Adolf Hitler was a man of the Left through and through, even though he battled other Leftists. (There is certainly anti-Semitism on the Right, though.)

Well,
 

Since David Eckstein IS NOT JEWISH I imagine he would not be involved in Bruce's personal agenda of being a stupid oaf.

David Eckstein was named to the NCAA All-Jewish baseball team. He called them to point out the assumption that since his name sounded Jewish that he WAS Jewish.

He is not.

When the World Series ended David received several offers from local LA groups to speak at all types of Jewish galas. When he informed them he was not Jewish the offers were rescinded.

He is a regular caller on the "Dan Patrick Show" on ESPN radio and has discussed the issue several times.

Tee

[Edited by Tim C on Feb 1st, 2003 at 03:19 PM]

Correct again Greymule. Hitler's "NAZI" party name was the initials of National Socialists. Nazi ideology made the individual subservient to the state--hardly right-wing politics. But it is easy for uneducated journalists to refer to conservatives as nazis because they believe in a strong military. Properly conceived, however, the "far-right" extreme would be anarchy, since the more conservative one is, the less one wants government interference with the individual.

Tee: Thank you for the clarification. Eckstein even looks jewish. It's not that we jews need role models, it's just that I cannot think of a jewish player on a world-series winner since Koufax. Maybe some of the walking baseball encyclopedias out there can name some.

Keep in mind also that Joseph Stalin, the hero of so many left-wingers, persecuted Jews mercilessly and cheered the murder of the millions. (Cheered privately, of course—publicly, he was shocked . . . shocked! to learn what had happened). Had Hitler not wrought his own Holocaust, Stalin was ready and waiting with his own.

On the subject of Jews in baseball, anyone who has not seen the recent film on Hank Greenberg should do so. Most video places have it.

Strange, Greenberg's son is a friend of mine, and Stalin's daughter used to live not far from me. Stalin had her husband shot.

Can an apostate be on the NCAA All-Jewish team?

It is anti-woman even if it comes from another woman. I can't explain it better than that. But I can't think of any word for a man that carries the vehemence that that word carries toward a woman.

Rita

<b>"But I can't think of any word for a man that carries the vehemence that that word carries toward a woman."</b>

I can. "Fag."

While many think of it as used jokingly among compadres, it is most often used to hurt, to slander, to curse, to demean, to accuse, to anger, to insult and to question.

"But I can't think of any word for a man that carries the vehemence that that word carries toward a woman."

How about "SOB"?

I believe that he made a mistake in what he saidand that it should not have been said. Maybe I'm just a little naive but, when did calling someone stupid equate to a racial slur? Would there have been as much pub on this if Ms. Davis was irish and he called her a stupid Irish B@!ch? Or how about a stupid catholic b@$ch?

You are correct, Garth. That does have all the hatred, sexual implications, and capability to hurt and demean.

Using her ethnic origin in conjunction gave no room for doubt. Having been in an angry situation in which my ethnic origin was included, I can tell you that it does matter. It makes it that much more personal. A ten day suspension was insufficient punishment.

Rita

[Edited by Rita C on Feb 3rd, 2003 at 11:48 AM]

Did you read the article? He didn't just call her "stupid."
Any yes, it would have been just as bad had he used any other ethnic or religious reference.

Yes I read the article and I know what all he said. My question though is not whether you think it would have been as bad. My question was would it have gotten a USA Today article and all the talk show pub had it been "stupid irish b**ch" or "stupid catholic b**ch". Personally I think it would have been just as bad, but I don't think the publicity would have been the same. That's what I was asking.

Believe it or not the origin of the word "fag" short for "faggot" derived back in Europe during the days of Witchcraft and Witch-hunts.

Back in those days men who stood up for women were burned right along with them. Homosexual men were burned to death as well. However, these men were tied up and placed at the feet of the witches, their bodies used as "faggots" to kindle the flames.

Webster defines "faggot" as a bundle of twigs or sticks. Then there is the more popular English version of the word fag which means a cigarette.

Suspension
 

Today, Mark Hirchbeck was also suspended ... make that yesterday.

He was suspended for using "Inappropriate Lanuage" with an MLB executive.

Andy

That was John Hirschbeck according to Yahoo sports. Wonder what Richie Phillips is doing right now? :D

[Edited by Alligator Bag on Feb 6th, 2003 at 11:14 PM]

Get a life!
 

This ought to get everyone excited....

You people are too sensitive. PERIOD. You and the news media CREATE the sensational part of these situations.

Is Cathy Davis of the Jewish religion? If yes, then why would she be offended? If no, then obviously Froemming was using the common, somewhat vulgar meaning of the word - namely CHEAP - jew someone down to a lower price. That definition is used all of the time. I'm sure he didn't capitalize the word when he said it - the newspaper dude did that. It wasn't even a public comment - he thought the phone had been hung up.

Froemming had just gotten the short end of making travel arrangements - he probably just got a couple of hundred dollars less for his travel to Japan than if the association had paid him and he made his own arrangements.

The use of the other vulgar word just means that he lost the argument... to a woman... and the money.

I don't like his comment at all. And it is not one that I would ever make, but you people and the news media sure seem to be making a lot more of it than Froemming intended.

Ten days isn't enough??! Maybe we should castrate him - there was a lot of that during the Holocaust. Stand him on some faggots and burn him! None of those things were right then and they wouldn't be right now... as a group you are over-reacting.

Go ahead call me a Christian... oh, oh, oh, do it again. Do it again. I am one.

Call me a fag/SOB. OOOOOooo in the right context that might piss me off but it doesn't hurt because I'm not either one.

Life is what you make of it folks and I feel you people are tilting windmills.

Well, Downtown, I'm glad somebody finally said it. People are <i>way</i> too sensitive these days. Of course, a person who walks around looking to be offended undoubtedly soon will be.

Remember the saying, "Don't make a federal case out of it"? Today, people literally create federal cases when they <i>feel</i> offended because somebody used politically incorrect terminology.

College students are brought up on disciplinary charges for voicing politically incorrect opinions in class.

Company employees are sent to sensitivity classes for telling an ethnic joke.

American flags have been banned from people's desks—in America—because "somebody might be offended."

A Catholic hospital was asked to remove the large cross on the side of its building because Muslims might not like having to see it.

You're right, Downtown. People should lighten up.

NEWS FLASH: Now I see that two people are suing an airline because the flight attendant said, "Eenie, Meenie, Mynie, Moe, pick a seat, we gotta go"! You see, that saying derives from a racist rhyme that was made up in the 19th century, so the people suffered humiliation and trauma and psychological distress—at least several million dollars' worth.

Well, Downtown, people aren't going to lighten up when they can get rich by being offended.

[Edited by greymule on Feb 10th, 2003 at 06:27 PM]

I agree with both of you.

People do need to lighten up.

Andy

Maybe if some of you who don't see anything disgusting about Froemming's, and other bigots', remarks, had your grandmother spit on because she was Jewish. Or the Nazi sympathizer German kid who lived across the street call you a "Dirty Jew" in 1944. Or listen to crap like this your entire childhood. Or be turned down for jobs because of your religion, race, or national background.

Maybe your tune would change if you had to hear the Catholic Church (until a few years ago), refer to us as "The perfidious Jews", and have your beliefs insulted every day. Maybe, just maybe, you might feel what we feel when we hear, or read, this hate-filled garbage day-in and day-out.

It's easy to ignore when it happens to someone else.

Bob

Exactly,
 

As Bob (BlueZebra) will attest I am very offensive in how I talk and treat others.

I was offended by what Froemming said.

We deal with a changing world. What was acceptable in the 60's doesn't pass now. And we will NEVER go backwards.

So make all the posts you want about the "good old days" and the irritation of a PC world,but guys it is here, and it is not going to leave.

I am probably most offended that Brice was dumb enough to let it get to the recorder.

Good post Bob.

Tee

I think that someone who is called a dirty Jew should naturally and properly be offended—and a lot more. No one could seriously deny that the speaker intended serious insult. In fact, the courts have ruled such remarks to be "fighting words" tantamount to assault.

However, I think that someone who gets upset upon hearing a harmless rhyme that happened to have racist roots a century ago has one great big chip on her shoulder.

For those of you defending PC idiocy, how would you like to be forced to apologize to your college class for having used the phrase "Black Friday" to refer to a day when the stock market took a deep fall? PC here to stay? I certainly hope not.

Greymule opined:

<b>"College students are brought up on disciplinary charges for voicing politically incorrect opinions in class."</b>

Good.

<b>"Company employees are sent to sensitivity classes for telling an ethnic joke."</b>

Appropriate.

<b>"American flags have been banned from people's desks—in America—because "somebody might be offended."</b>

Citation, please.

<b>"A Catholic hospital was asked to remove the large cross on the side of its building because Muslims might not like having to see it."</b>

Citation, please.

<b>"You're right, Downtown. People should lighten up."</b>

Yeah! What happened to the good ol' days when we could put on black face and make fun everyone who was different from us?


<b>"NEWS FLASH: Now I see that two people are suing an airline because the flight attendant said, "Eenie, Meenie, Mynie, Moe, pick a seat, we gotta go"! You see, that saying derives from a racist rhyme that was made up in the 19th century, so the people suffered humiliation and trauma and psychological distress—at least several million dollars' worth."</b>

Citation, please.


It's easy to mix urban myths with appeals for the days of yore. Easy, but insulting to most everyone with an IQ beyond their waist size.

Citation for airline story:

http://www.msnbc.com/local/ksnt/m270363.asp?cp1=1

The banning of American flags was all over the news about a month ago. The company, under great pressure, eventually reversed itself and allowed Americans to display the flag of their country on their desks.

The hospital cross flap occurred about two years ago (before 9/11 actually). I don't record a citation for every news story I see, but this and similar outrages have been dutifully reported.

As for the student who had to apologize for using the phrase "Black Friday," I know the guy personally. He is now a Presbyterian minister. This incident, along with thousands of other cases of PC bullying, didn't make the papers.

I said: "College students are brought up on disciplinary charges for voicing politically incorrect opinions in class."

To that, Garth replied, "Good."

Garth, do you actually think it's <i>good</i> that someone is brought up on charges for voicing his opinion?

It is a common tactic of pro-PC types to insist that anyone who disagrees with them is a hater, a Nazi, a Klansman, and so forth. People without an intellectual argument to make usually do end up resorting to name-calling.

<b>Garth, do you actually think it's good that someone is brought up on charges for voicing his opinion?</b>

Depends on what he "voices."

Hate speech and speech intended to threaten or that which carries an implied threat are not mere opinions. Gone are the days when good ol' boys can "voice their opinions" to harass or scare the hell out of those with whom they differ.

Yes, good.

Greymule,
 

Garth is far from being an activist for the PC movement.

His points are well taken, IF you would have an open mind.

The point being made is that "barndoors" cannot be closed. To remember the past and learn from it is imporant, to try to take us back there, counter productive.

We are no longer a nation of 150 million, primarily white humans. As our population has increased so has the need to meld those cultures together.

Your argument has holes. The lack of citations is funny because you select "specific" one time examples and attempt to make them "the way it is."

Pish-Posh (correct reference for my geographic area).

If we use your system of arguing then we could then say, "Hmmm, in Wyoming a gay man was murdered by being beaten to death: therefore, all people in Wyoming are anit-gay." Same logic as your "one time examples".

None of us doubt the examples you gave (I remember the American Flag example -- again ONE COMPANY making a poor decision)but they are too personal (I had a friend that this happened to is not acceptable evidence in ANY arguement)or just one time judgements.

I strongly agree that you have ever right to have what ever feelings you have about anything. I also support your right to openly discuss them in any forum.

I also strongly suggest that you have a logical and documented appeal if you want anyone to fall into your camp.

I will always fight for your right for an opinion even if I feel you are wrong.

Re: Greymule,
 

But according to the PC movement, you only get one chance. You say one thing, and that is the way it is. Now, Froemming said what he said. Does that mean that he dislikes all Jews? Maybe. Or, maybe it just means that he dislikes this one in particular. Or maybe, as you say in your example of the company and the flag, he just made a bad decision. I get called names all the time. Stupid German....dumb kraut...and many other things. Does that mean that the person who said that dislikes Germans? No..it just means that they dislike me.

If you want to use the logic that one example doesn't make it so, that's fine. But then before you call someone a racist, or a hater, or whatever, give more than just one example.

Excuse me,
 

Since you have quoted my post I would like a citation from it where I say anything that could be construed to your statement,

"But then before you call someone a racist, or a hater, or whatever, give more than just one example."

Please direct me to where I said anything like this so I can edit it out immediately.

Thank you.

Tee

In your reply to greymule, you told him that taking one example doesn't make something so. That's all I am saying to. Taking one comment that someone makes doesn't make it so. I'm not talking about you in particular, but all these people that are saying Froemming is an anti-semite, fine, then give me another example of what he said. Don't just point out one thing that was said and make it the way it is. Just like you had said, "One example doesn't make it so."

g,
 

Thank you for the clarification.

"You can't close barn doors."

You're right!

"insulting to most everyone with an IQ beyond their waist size." You're right! and to continue your sarcastic approach either increase your IQ or slim down.

"be turned down for jobs because of your religion, race, or national background." You're right! I have been. Being a 40ish year-old, white, Christian male, I have been bested and passed, by people of less qualification, because they were females, or minorities or of the more approved religion.

I disagree with letting this crap bother me or assuming that it is out of my control. I can do something about it... and so can you. If you want.

Because no matter which route you choose... YOU'RE RIGHT.

You will find justification to prove your point... and be able to stand up proudly with chest puffed out and say I'M RIGHT!

It's human nature to feel you are in the right. We all do it. Look around yourself. There are all kinds of people around you saying they are right. Many of them are on opposite ends of the battle. They can't possibly both be right but in each of their own respective minds they are... as are you.

Our world is filled with injustices. The perpetrators of these injustices think they are right. For their time, their situation, their upbringing, their understanding, their perception, their experiences... they are right and they are justified in feeling this way. Ask them if you don't believe me.

The fundamental difference is the choice they made before they implemented their human nature to say they were right.

"Can't go back to the good ol' days." You're right! Learn from the past and move ahead. Be politically correct; that is how you respect other people. God told us to love our neighbors (other people); love them. Be politically correct. Love those who are not PC. SET THE EXAMPLE.

Please don't perpetuate the problems or exacerbate them by having banal, MEANINGLESS, discussions... that serve no purpose except to escalate the very injustices you are complaining about. If you make the fundamental choice to let this stuff wash over you and be gone... YOU WILL ALSO BE RIGHT.

Choose sides wisely because which ever one you choose, you will throw yourself behinds its cause, and you will be right. Please recognise that being right is not that terribly important and your promulgation of being right does not mean that you are... to everyone else.

I am saddened by the injustices we all face. Peace be with you, Tony

I know that anecdotal evidence alone does not prove anything. We can all cite anomalies. After all, Hitler loved dogs and, after his mother died, wrote extensive praises of the Jewish doctor who had cared for her. However, to put forth an argument on a web site, one is practically limited to citing examples. Therefore, I recommend any of the many books that have documented how open discourse is under attack in this country. In my opinion the incidents I mentioned are not one-time oddities but are instead representative of a PC silliness that has now become the rule, not the exception.

As for "hate speech," saying, "I'm going to kill you," has long been illegal in the U.S. And "You dirty [you fill it in]" has long been considered "fighting words." But today, practically anything that makes someone uncomfortable can qualify as "hate speech."

Now tell me your honest opinion of this:

Q: How many Jewish mothers does it take to change a light bulb?

A: None. You go. Have a good time. I'll just sit here at home, alone, in the dark.

Is anybody out there <i>truly</i> offended by that? Should someone who tells that joke be sent to re-education camp? If so, send a one-way ticket to the person I heard it from, my Jewish business partner.

A friend of mine who goes to a small college in Ohio was forced, by the university, to remove an American flag from his dorm room window due to complaints they were recieving from the meninite students enrolled there. These students claimed that displaying the American flag was an act of supporting the war with Iraq; an event they are strictly against. A majority of this PC stuff is deffinately rediculous.

Buckeye
 

See it is your friends problem that he didn't refuse and say, "let's take this to the press and see who wins."

See some of us in this thread are being mistaken for supporters of the PC movement. That is wrong.

In fact you can see that I have told GreyMule that I will fight for his right to speak his mind. And I always will.

As a card carrying member of the SDS during the 60's no one has ever mistaken me for supporting the "status quo" . . .

I just fall back to the point that it is important that we recognize that times change and NOT the desire to to have a free voice.

Your friend should tell the university to piss up a rope.

I would have 35 years ago and I would today.

". After all, Hitler loved dogs and, after his mother died, wrote extensive praises of the Jewish doctor who had cared for her"

This is exactly the opposite of what I read, and saw on TV documentaries, about the reason for Hitler's vehement hatred of Jews. He blamed the doctor for his mother's death, and developed that into a hatred for all Jews.

Bob

Yes, that Ohio student should have gone to the press, and he should have told the college just where they could shove their edict that he had to take his American flag down.

But it takes a lot of courage for a young college student to stand up to people who are telling him what a horrible villain he is for hurting people's feelings by flying the flag. If you don't go along with the program, you risk harassment, ostracism, bullying, vandalism to your car, and who knows what else.

Of course, college campuses are notoriously PC places now, where free speech covers the entire spectrum from left to far left.

By the way, how could anyone know for certain that flying the flag meant support for war? Maybe he was simply saying, "I love my country." Maybe he just liked the colors. Amazing how these people know exactly what's in someone's mind.

Interesting, isn't it, that if that same student had publicly <i>burned</i> the American flag (and offended vastly more people), the same crowd that was hassling him for flying it would be screaming about his sacred right to free "symbolic" speech.

Grey.
 

Excellent post, sir.

Tim— Thank you.

Bob— Many people have speculated about the source of Hitler's hatred for Jews. Was it that he was himself part Jewish and full of self-hate? Was it the Jewish doctor who couldn't save his mother? Was it shock at his first exposure to Hasidim, who looked strange to him and spoke differently? Was it that certain Jews supported Bolshevism? Probably nobody will ever know for sure. Certainly by the end of his life he had convinced himself that "International Jewry" was behind everything bad that had ever happened, probably including the sinking of the Titanic. So his delusions fed on themselves.

My own guess is that it was pure political expediency. The collapse of the German economy hurt some people more than others, so it was easy to gain favor with people who were doing badly by telling them that it was all the fault of the people who were not doing as badly.

It is interesting that in the early years, when Hitler was testing the political waters, he had almost nothing to say about Jews.

While reading a biography of Hitler, I was struck by the long, flowery, thankful, practically adoring letter he wrote to the doctor who treated his mother. Perhaps later, in his paranoia, Hitler decided that the doctor must have killed her, but I know of no hard evidence for that.

I read a lot about WW2, Hitler, Stalin, Roosevelt, Churchill, etc. Unfortunately, my books are in storage after a move, but when I dig them out I'll try to find some pertinent material to send you.

I'd greatly appreciate it. Most of what I've read re: WWII was the combat aspect, especially the Marines in the Pacific.

Bob

Just a question for those of you hung up on the PC world of today.

What would the response have been had Froemming made that comment 40 years ago? 30 years? 20 years?

Rita

Jim:

I have no idea why you are apologizing to me. Did you do something wrong? Did you make a mistake? Did you fart?

I take no offense at your words. I am not a rabid defender of stupidity. (I do not use the phrase PC because it has lost its meaning. Much like the words "liberal" and "conservative" it is used primarily by those who wish to denote something negative)

I am, however, opposed to causing unwarranted harm, fear or itimidation by action or words merely because of one's race, gender, religion, political bent or social standing.

Rita, I believe that 40 years ago—1963—Bruce Froemming would have been roundly criticized, possibily even more so than today, but for somewhat different reasons. This is partially because, especially so soon after World War II, a public attack on someone's Jewishness would have been considered way over the line.

But it's also for another reason. You are probably too young to remember, but 40 years ago obscenities were very rarely heard in public, and believe it or not, "b*tch" was considered an obscenity. A man lost face if he directed such words toward a woman. He was dishonorable.

Students used to be disciplined, even suspended from school, for using words that today are thrown around like confetti. Believe me, if a kid in my school had been heard saying, "You s*ck," he'd still be writing on the blackboard. Polite society did not permit the use of words that today are commonly uttered on television and screamed toward players on ballfields. Even the word "hell" was <i>not</i> spoken on TV. There were no laws to this effect, but that's what society expected.

I also remember when Hank Bauer of the Yankees, during a pre-game TV interview in the 1950s, said something like, "If our pitching doesn't come through this weekend, we'll probably get our *ss kicked." People talked about it for days, and eventually excused it on the grounds that Bauer was a former U.S. Marine who deserved a break since he had served his country heroically. (Plus, went the wisdom, everybody knew that Marines used "colorful" language.) But Bauer wasn't getting any invitations to speak at teas.

Personally, I wish that in that regard our sensibilities were more in line with those of the "old days."

Bruce Froemming should indeed be criticized for his stupid and callous remarks, especially if they were public. However, the PC movement would see that he lost his job and was sent to a re-education camp, and that's making a mountain out of a molehill. The PC movement also finds fault with people who mean no harm whatsoever but simply use ordinary terms that don't reflect PC politics, like "slave," "old wives' tales," "gypped," "waitress," "manhole cover," and the list goes on forever.

Hank Greenberg said that, when he played, every single batter who came up heard ethnic slurs not only from the crowd but also from the other team. It didn't matter that your own team had Italians on it, the Italian on the other team was a stupid dago. Greenberg said that the slurs directed toward him stood out because he was the only (or at least the most prominent) Jew. He also said that after he returned in 1945 from military service, the ethnic slurs were gone. The horrors of WW2 had shaken people too much. (It would be two years before Jackie Robinson heard them, but they didn't last long.)

So I say treat everybody with respect and don't call anybody names. And when you use obscenities, you're merely showing off your inability to express yourself and your lack of vocabulary. But I also say to "heck" with PC.

Mr. Greymule,

I do remember 40 years back. Forty years ago tomorrow I celebrated my eighth birthday. Let's see what I remember about that time and since.

I remember the male teachers of 6th, 7th, and 8th grade. They taught us how to say "Yes, sir" and "No, sir". Be sure we did. To forget was to receive lashes with a yardstick across our buttocks, hands, or (if you were a boy) at the side of the knee with legs about a yard apart.

I remember one of these teachers making fun of my non-Anglo-Saxon name. Nevermind that we had anglicized the pronunciation to make it easier for Americans to pronounce. (One of the vowel sounds doesn't exist in the English language.)

I remember my brother changing the spelling of his first name under my mother's instructions so that he would no longer be punished for spelling it "wrong".

I remember the scandal when the brother of one of the girls on my eighth grade basketball team showed up at our game with hair to his shoulders.

I remember saying that he worked for my dad. I remember the teacher saying, "Your dad should fire him!" because he had long hair. I remember crying. I remember thinking my dad was a better man for looking at a man for what he did instead of what he looked like.

I remember eighth grade being the last time I played an organized sport. They didn't exist for girls after eighth grade.

There's more I remember. I do think that some things have changed for the better since then. Overall I think most tend to romanticize that time. People tried to make things better by changing words but I think that people continue to find a way to hate. (Witness the fifth grader I heard taunt another one the other day by calling him "mentally challenged")

It was different back then, but it wasn't better.

Rita

<i> Originally posted by greymule </i>

<b> Bruce Froemming should indeed be criticized for his stupid and callous remarks, especially if they were public. </b>

IMO we need the facts first.

This is according to sports shows articles etc. written by various authors.

1. Bruce Froemming was in the privacy of his own home. He was talking to someone via his cell phone and forgot to turn the cell phone off when he made his comment.

Do I condone what he said - Of cource not but the fact is he said these things in the privacy of his own home NOT in some public Forum.

2. The acting Commissioner of Baseball is Bud Seilig who is Jewish. He handed down a 10 game suspension so if in the eyes of the Commissioner who is Jewish, he must have felt that the comments even though derogatory were made in the privacy of someone's home and not as a Statement in a Public Forum.

If we are going to judge people on what they say etc. then IMO look at some of the Individuals in the Hall of Fame in all Major Sports.

Also, let's get down to the REAL issue. These types of things are printed not because someone really cares about ethnic slurs but for MONEY. Just look at this thread which already generated over 4 pages of comments, add that to the millions of newspapers sold plus the people who listen to sports talk shows.

If you or I said something similar no one would give a hoot except the people that know us.

The bottom line whether you agree or disagree is that in this Country we have FREEDOM of Speech whether you like that Speech or not. There was a Time when as individuals we couldn't say "BOO" without fear of being be-headed. Would like to go back to those times?

Does Bruce Froemming purposely "Cheat" when calling balls / strikes when a Jewish player is up at bat? or squeeze a pitcher who is Jewish? If he does those types of things then IMO he should be FIRED right on the SPOT.

I think we need to distingusih comments made in someone's home vs. a Public Statement to a group of people.

Pete Booth

Very good point. Actually, I went only by what was posted here and missed the venue of Froemming's comments. That's why I said, "If [Froemming's comments] were made publicly." I should have added, "<i>Only</i> if his comments were made publicly."

If the PC crowd could prosecute people for what they say privately, they could hang everybody (probably including themselves).

Actually, I was begining to belive this was a "Chat Room"