Malicuous contact in MLB???
 

Should MLB make the plays that took place out Buster Posey for the rest of the season (catcher collision at home plate) illegal like other levels do with the malicious contact rules? Or is this just baseball and should continue and never have a rules change?

BTW, Posey's agent made this suggestion and they have been talking about it on ESPN all morning.

Peace

It's time. Question is: Will Posey ever be the same again?

Video Link
 

For those that have not seen it:
Buster Posey likely out for season with leg fracture | MLB.com: News

The left (HP side) ankle of the catcher is where the injury is. The last replay (about 2:40 in) is the most graphic.

Rut if MLB is going to institutue an MC rule then IMO they also need to amend the OBS rule.

Presently in OBR F2 or any fielder for that matter CAN block the ENTIRE base without the ball as long as he is considered in the act of fielding.

The reason F2's get injured is because they are blocking the ENTIRE plate and in some instances the only recoarse the runner has at attaining home plate is to bowl over or dislodge the ball from F2.

Therefore you cannot have "your cake and eat it to". If you want an MC rule then the OBS rule needs to be amended as well.

It's my gut (especially with the kinds of money these ball players are making) that OBR will put in more safety provisions and it would not shock me to see OBR mirror some NCAA or FED safety rules. (ala the FPSR)

Pete Booth

Who cares if they amend the rule? It is not impossible to change the rule. Also he was not blocking the plate.

Peace

I guess we see things differently. Posey was blocking the plate well before he received the ball. IMO, that's why R3 did what he did.

Pete Booth

Not in the videos I've seen. Catcher was up the 1BL a bit. Not saying it was illegal as MLB is called right now ... but he was not yet blocking the plate -- the runner clearly was going to dislodge the ball and nearly missed the plate entirely because of it.

It won't surprise me at all if we some changes because of this.

(Edit to add ... just watched the replay above - at no point is Posey actually in the runner's way - until the runner decided to go for him instead of the plate.

Not sure what we see differently, because I am not making the point you are or debating the validity.

But the runner went inside when he when he could have gone outside. In other words he had access to the plate from what I saw in the video. Instead he went straight at Posey to take him out. I agree with you that the rule would have to change about blocking the plate, but that is not why this happen. You do not need to block the plate for these plays to happen at the MLB level anyway. I am just wondering if it is time to change the acceptability of this play regardless of what the catcher might have done. And at the college and HS level, blocking the plate would not exonerate the actions of the runner anyway.

Peace

Absolute nonsense. Posey was completly in fair territory and R3 had a path to the plate that did not require the take out hit.

This is not to argue that R3 shouldn't have, as a precaution to be safe, taken him out. But he didn't have to take him out to reach the plate.

I agree with Rich, it's time

-Josh

My first thought is that the reason we have MC rules is to protect those who aren't being paid to play - many times, minors. MLB catchers know the risk they run, as do the players who collide with them. I don't see it as cheap. It was hardnosed and brutal but something that is expected at that level. Ray Fosse was the recipient of such a play and even he is on record as saying that pro catchers must be ready to be knocked down when trying to tag out a runner. If Ray can say that after Pete Rose separated his shoulder in an All Star game, that speaks volumes about pro expectations.

Upon further consideration, I think that introducing MC to professional baseball is simply a way to protect investments while winking at purpose pitches and slides that break up double plays. Plenty of pros have been injured by such slides but few call for them to be outlawed. I hope Buster recovers but not at the expense of pseudo-safety rules in pro ball.

Listen to the KNBR interview with Bruce Bochy. Even he admits that it is part of the game and that Cousins believed that Posey was going to come up with the ball for a tag. Bochy said that it sucks but that's baseball.

[QUOTE]The reason we have MC rules in amateur ball is because of insurance. If there were NO MC rules in place I doubt the vast majority of us could afford the premiums.

I do think MLB will take a look at some form of MC rule.

Look at the NFL. They have moved the kickoff from the 30 yd line to the 35 yd line. Trying to "crack down" on vicious hits etc.

PRO Sports is sbout money and they will do what they have to to protect it's stars that's why I said it would not shock me to see MLB adopt some of the safety rules in place at the FED / NCAA level.

Pete Booth

Joe Torre on one of the radio talk shows said that's baseball and he would not recommend changing anything.

Off topic: Is that Joe West calling the play from the RH batter's box? Maybe you need to be that close for the type of collisions you see in MLB.

[QUOTE=PeteBooth;761557]Pete,
Nothing gets done in MLB without the player's union consent. Owners can whine about protection all they want but the players don't want the change.

Giants' repeat odds even steeper after Posey injury - MLB - Sporting News

I bet it won't be long before Posey follows Bochy in admitting that he was attempting to block the plate and was prepared for the hit. Take a look back at Posey plays at the dish and he has no need for a 'red jersey'. Maybe the owners will whine, but I hope not. I'm sure Tom Ricketts is not happy about Marlon Byrd taking a pitch to the face but masks are not going to happen any time soon in order to protect his investment.

Yikes! Did you see how Posey's head almost bounced off West's shin guard or shoe? He was too close for his own sake too.

If you look very carefully, Posey's left ankle got hung against his right leg and that is when he snapped the bone. I remember a test with an MLB player running into a dummy catcher and they measured over 3000 lbs of force split between the two. And people wonder why we don't want players "taken out" in HS & youth ball.

MLB DOES have a malicious contact rule - of sorts.

This is what the MLBUM says:

Now, to me, the runner launching himself to throw his shoulder into Posey's head IS "...an intentional act of interference unrelated to running the bases..." - because Posey was in no way blocking the R3's access to the base, especially not with his head.

Based on this and other similar instances, that is clearly not how MLB wants the language interpreted. Maybe they should rethink that.

JM

And while this has actually been invoked, I can't recall it ever being invoked in a play at the plate.

[QUOTE=PeteBooth;761557]yep it's just a matter of time. More and more players in MLB are more interested in their health than playing everyday. That's why so many of them sit out so many games now. I wouldn't be surprised in a few years to see something about plays at 2nd also.

Players have too many incentives tied in with their contracts now to have to sit out games due to serious injury.

Thanks
David

When you watch the old MLB films, you can see that at one time practically nothing was prohibited—case after case of obvious intentional interference, with little or no effort to disguise it. Apparently the runner from 1B not only had the right to interfere on an attempted DP, but was expected to do so by everyone on the field. Runners (1) went ten feet out of the baseline to crash the fielder at 2B, (2) in obvious attempts to interfere, went into 2B standing up after being put out, (3) crashed the catcher at home if he was anywhere near the plate, ball or not, and (4) feigned "protective" moves when they used their hands and arms to grab and tangle and otherwise interfere.

The umpires seemed simply to watch it all happen but let it go, and fielders never seemed to look to the umps for some kind of call. You wonder what runners would have had to do to get an INT call, much less get ejected.

Jack Clark has a radio show each night on one of the talk radio channels, and I listen when the Cardinals aren't on the other station.

Last night, they were discussing the Posey incident. Jack prefaced by saying Posey wasn't a dirty player, so the story wouldn't apply to him; however, he said the players always found a way to crash into "dirty" catchers. He explicitly gave Mike Scioscia as an example. If you came home, Jack said that Mike would always find a way to hip check you or give you an elbow to the ribs, especially if there was no play being made on you. Jack said that because of this, players were always looking at ways to get the upper hand; he implied that injuring a "dirty" player was a goal of many other players.

Now, I don't know how true it is, but seeing video like you mention doesn't discredit what he said.

That has been my thought for years. I know collisions at the plate have been a part of MLB for years, but why is a play at the plate different then, say, a steal attempt at second base? Shouldn't a runner be allowed to throw a shoulder into the shortstop?

He implied that injuring a "dirty" player was a goal of many other players.

I think that's true. Since the rules didn't penalize dirty play, the players exacted justice themselves.

In 1964, in my first pitching start in American Legion, an opponent thrown out at 1B clearly attempted to step hard on our first baseman's foot. (He did hit some of the foot, but not enough to cause injury.) The umps said nothing, and our F3 just glared at the guy as he went toward his dugout.

At the end of the inning, my coach told me, "When that ba$t-rd comes up again . . ." and pointed to his own head. As a 15-year-old, I was taken aback somewhat and asked, "Really?" to which the coach responded, "You gotta protect your teammate."

The coach was a well-respected former pro, and the guy I was supposed to throw at was in the minors a few years later.

When the guy came up again, the bases were loaded with two out. I didn't want to risk hitting the guy and giving up a run, so I threw a strike, which the guy lined back to me for the third out. My coach wasn't happy, and asked me if I remembered his order. I said, "Well, I didn't want to be obvious and throw at him on the first pitch. Plus, I didn't want to fall behind him with the bases loaded."

(Fifteen years later, that same bast . . . er, guy was playing shortstop in a softball game, and I slid into him to break up a possible DP. He complained to me about it.)

Nice. Coming from a Guy who I believed said the DH rule is bad. This is a can left unopened.

My feelings on the DH are this: I'm OK with it, but both leagues should use the same rule. I'd prefer to see pitchers bat. Cliff Lee had 2 hits and 3 RBI yesterday. Roy Oswalt had an RBI single tonight.

Violent collisions at the plate are of dubious value. Once the catcher has the ball, it rarely comes out. Most times there's a collision, the runner would score without the collision anyway.

Well and now with NCAA and HS having rules, the future MLB players have grown up with rules that protect at 2nd and home.

Then they get to MLB and all of a sudden its "gloves off". Interesting to read on ESPN what some old MLB players said. Obviously they don't have a inkling that today in college and in HS there are rules to protect the F2.

Many of the comments were "there is no way to govern what happens at the plate etc., " Guess it shows a little head in the sand for those guys.

I agree that most collisions at the plate are unnecessary - and that the runner would have scored anyway.

Thanks
David

Many of today's MLB players did not grow up with Fed or NCAA rules. OBR governs much of the planet from adolescents on up. They permit take out slides, brush backs and MC. We have those rules because of litigation and a desire to protect. Much of the world plays hardnosed baseball.

I'll agree with NCAA, but not with Fed. Considering a majority of the players are my age or younger, and I played under Fed rules when I was in high school, then I can say that almost all of the MLB players (that went to high school in the United States) played under Fed rules.

Then again, your point could be that a high number of players are from foreign countries. this 2005 study showed only 30% of the players were "International."

I think it's simply that they, like most players and coaches, were ignorant to the rules when they were in high school.

I think it's simply that they, like most players and coaches, were ignorant to the rules when they were in high school.

When I was playing in school and college (1964-1970), I thought I knew a lot about the rules (ha ha!), and yet I wasn't even aware that separate rules existed for high school, college, and MLB. I knew that my college coach was on the NCAA rules committee, but even then I thought simply that, on the field, baseball rules were baseball rules.

I think that back then American Legion used OBR, with a few minor exceptions that didn't involve actual play. No crash rule, no FPSR, no dead ball appeals, etc.

I coached high school baseball for a couple of years after college. If we were indeed covered by FED, I'd love to see a book from those days (eBay?). At the time, I wasn't even aware that one existed. My authority was a 49-cent folded brochure of OBR rules, in very small print.

Fed goes back at least to the 1940's. I have seen FED rules that date from the mid 50's.

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Almost 30% of current active players were not exposed to Fed type safety rules while developing. Almost a third of the Majors...'many' seems like an appropriate term. Hard nosed baseball involves collisions at the plate. We may prefer it doesn't but the majority of players think it does or the union would allow the change.

Many Catholic and private schools around here didn't adopt NFHS standards for some time. They utilized pro type rules and shunned the IHSA until they found that competition was better and liability less by being part of the association.

Owners have a vested interest in a change. "Players" are not all catchers. They should establish a sub-committee with equal mix of position players and catchers to provide feedback on union position.

A subcommittee? They have those already and they have long recommended that this part of the game not change. EVERY player's union member has a vote already. EVERY means that they include all position players - even the ones on IR and DL. Nearly 100 players who aren't even active can still voice their concerns - yes, those are the injured ones who are probably predisposed towards protecting their own! Plenty of managers and coaches, including former catchers, stand by the desire to not change the rules. Mike Scioscia is one who is adamant about it and instructs catchers on how to block the plate properly. http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?...k_ana&c_id=ana

One of the most famous collisions in baseball involved Pete Rose bowling over Ray Fosse in an All Star game. Ray Fosse separated his shoulder in a fairly meaningless contest. He was never the same after that injury. He is on record as saying that collisions at the plate are and should remain part of baseball. His position has not changed and he was sought out after Posey went down. He maintains that changing the game is wrong.

Posey was hurt on a clean play. His spikes caused his ankle to be held in place while his body rolled back. Outlaw metal spikes?

They are paid to play and risk injury. They are entertainers.

They are paid to play and risk injury. They are entertainers.

Entertainers to the fans, I guess. But to the owners, the players are, as Jim Bouton said, farm animals.

A change is coming. Owners will realize their investments are in unnecessary jeopardy and players will will choose to protect their future earnings. It will take time and a seminal moment, but just as sure as all batters will wear helmets in today's games, a change is coming.

A little history lesson is in order. The first helmet used for protecting a batter was introduced in 1907. Ray Champman was beaned in 1920 and died as a result of the injury. Owners did not rally to 'protect their investments'. Several players chose to wear plastic inserts under their caps for protection. In 1952, the Pittsburgh Pirates mandated that their players wear a helmet, sans ear protection. It was not until 1971, after several years of brutal beanings at the plate and while sliding, that MLB instituted a helmet policy. Helmets with earflaps were shunned by the Players Union until 1983 when they aqcuiesced to mandatory single earflaps. Several players who were grandfathered in elected to wear the flapless helmets until retirement.

It seems that the death of a player is not considered a seminal moment. Several decades of horrific beanings didn't change player mentality. It took almost a century to provide for player safety gear to be mandatory. One catcher breaking an ankle won't be the impetus for adopting a MC rule in MLB. Given the bantering here about what constitutes MC, it will be a disaster upon implimentation in the bigs.

This isn't 1907 or even 1957. I'm not saying it'll happen now, but just because it didn't in 1907 or 1961 doesn't mean anything with regards to today.

You are correct. Changes progress at different tempi at different times regarding different issues and different rationale.

A change is coming. If you take the time to listen, and tune out the broadcasters and old school toughies, you can hear it from owners, players and even ML umpires.

The NCAA rule makes sense to me. If theplate is blocked, you can got for the plate, even if that means going "through" the catcher. If the plate isn't b;locked, you can't go after the catcher.

Yep. Some ML umpires have opined similarly. Others have suggested simply callinging plays at home as they would at first using current ML interpretations would be an improvement over the current situations. I doubt owners will trust umpires to change their calls without a change in the rules.

Unless the contact is judged to be above the waist. Then it violates the collision rule. Then it is judged as an attempt to dislodge the baseball, not an attempt to reach the plate.

Anyone hear Posey's comments about the incident? An ESPN interview has him stating that he doesn't want the rule changed and how collisions are part of professional baseball.

Someone rekindled a thread from 4 years ago regarding INT at 2B. It is interesting to see some say how rule changes will be forthcoming because the players will demand it. Four years later...

that's a guideline, not an absolute. I wasn't trying to recreate the entire rule and interp in my post.

agreed
 

this sounds sensible to me.......

1. It's not up to Posey.
2. He would like like a big baby if he were to come out now and push for a rule change. No way he does that.
3. I anticipate the owners will push for it harder than the players.
4. One incident won't be a catalyst.
5. It'll probably have to happen to a more high profile player before a rule change is made.

Do you have a recent link for either one of those assertions? I think you have mischaracterized the position of both Fosse and Posey.

Posey is quoted in the Bay Area media as asserting that he purposely left a lane open for Cousins and Cousins went out of his way to take him out. There is no quote from Posey justifying the hit or approving of this particular collision that I can find.

Is someone trying to compare the hit Fosse took while blocking the plate with the hit Posey took while NOT blocking the plate?

Try this one: (Which opens with: "Ray Fosse watched the crushing blow to Giants star Buster Posey and wondered why after all these years there are still few rules to protect catchers at the plate.")


[url=http://www.dailydemocrat.com/ci_18161068?source=most_viewed]Posey's injury stirs debate about home plate collisions - Daily Democrat Online[/url

More high-profile:
1. NL Rookie of the Year
2. 5th overall pick (and highest-picked catcher)
3. (At the time) highest draft-signing bonus

I'd say for a kid in his 2nd year of MLB, he's pretty high-profile. Not to mention he was one of the young stars of the game.

What more profile do you need?

Honestly? If I had to guess, I'd say a veteran who doesn't play on the west coast. Being in the WS helped, but not as much as playing in SF hurts.

You missed every other point I made. No, he's not Pujols, but he's a rising star with a big contract. I think his profile is good enough to make the argument begin to roll.

No, I didn't miss your points. I simply answered your question.

I didn't say he wasn't high profile, just that it would probably take a higher profile injury. I could be wrong, though.

And all that is great but he is not a household name like A-Rod or Jeter. This is baseball; there are not many players that everyone knows who they are. So if something happen to the two players I mentioned I would not be surprised that more attention would be mentioned about a rules change. With all that being said, they are not going to change rules in this matter. MLB is likes to act like tradition makes them special.

Peace