Rules Question
 

I am coaching a 4th grade baseball team, we are playing MLB rules other than the fact that the whole team bats.

Tonight we had a game where our team was in the field, we believed that we had two outs, we got another out and our team started leaving the field. There was a runner on 3rd base who when we started to leave the field, left his base and went to the dugout. Not all of our players had left the field when we were alerted that it was only the 2nd out. Our 3rd baseman who had not left the field of play picked up the ball went to third base and touched the bag. he stayed there and waited for the runner to return to the base and tagged him as he walked back to the base. The Umpire called "Time" before the base runner returned to the bag because we were questioning about the runner being out.

The umpire let the runner return to the base and we continued the inning, that call cost us at least a tie to an otherwise undefeated season.I have 24 hours to appeal the call if I so choose.

A similar incident happened in a previous game however we were on the other side of this situation and our runner was called out. the umpire of that game informed us that it was our player's responsibility to know the number of outs and since he left the base he was out.

Wonder if anyone has any thoughts on the situation, if you need further information please let me know

thank you,
Dave

"...left his base and went to the dugout."

It's my understanding that if R3 entered the dugout, it is definitely "Abandonment;" therefore R3 is out just for that - no tag necessarry. (Some might even argue that just leaving the baseline heading toward the dugout constitutes abandonment of the base.)

I guess another consideration here is that this is a game between 10 yr olds (4th graders?), so some developmental instruction/leeway might be in order...

Let's ignore the abandonment rule that cookie mentioned. That rule in and of itself would be the third out, but I have another way to get it.

It's based on one question: Was there at least one member of your team between the foul lines at all times? If so, F5's action of taking the ball and touching the base is an appeal for me, and I'm getting the third out.

Either way, you need to protest. Your protest should include both examples on reasons the third out should have been upheld. The best thing that can happen is you get the win and the umpire learns something.

I would hazard a guess that there are more exceptions to the rules than simply “the whole team bats.” If not, then shame on the league for not using common sense, the coaches for not insisting on the use of common sense and the parents for being so senselessly gullible.

No, thank you, Dave. Your efforts will be rewarded. Prep your charges for high school ball, commonly a step towards MLB.

Yes, we would.

Cookie makes a good point: Dave, try your best to keep it all in perspective. Going undefeated at the age of ten is less important than teaching ten year-olds to listen to their base coaches, if indeed the base coaches knew there were less than three outs.

Winning on an appeal is like kissing your sister.

We are talking about 10 year old kids here. Dave wrote that they were all fooled into believing three outs occured. If the coaches and adults all were confused, penalizing Junior for wandering when told is rough. I coach the same level and mistakes happen - usually on the part of the kids. I understand it is a lesson but if the coaches and umpires are complicit, the penalty (an out on the runner for abandoning) is inappropriate. Pro rules should be used where pro umpires are in place.

Enjoy the experience, Dave. You'll learn more about life and baseball through their eyes.

No, he doesn't need to protest. He needs to chalk it up as something that happens in games involving 10-year-olds and *move on*.

I guess they're all using wood bats, too.

What kind appeal would that be, missed base or retouch?

I agree with Rich: the lesson here is to move on, keep better track of the outs in future, and not turn this into a federal case. It's 10YO's for cryin' out loud.

I too am unsure what you would be appealing here.

And with 10 year-olds, win or lose, we're still going to DQ afterwards.

I agree with what the umpire did.

An appeal of ... what? Not being on the base? This is not an appealable transgression. Either the runner is out when they enter the dugout, or he's simply not on the base and must be tagged. There's no appeal at all here.

I agree in general. However, it's worth bringing to the attention of the board that they have 1 umpire calling abandonment outs at 10U and another letting them return without liability to be put out. For consistency sake, this should be brought to UIC's attention.

But I agree - protesting a 10U league game? Really? Tourney or playoffs, ok - select, ok. But league? Learn and move on.

I agree with bob here.

By your own admission, both teams believed there to be three outs.
Lets turn the tables a little. Lets say he touched home on the way to the dugout. Should the run now count? by rule yes. by common sense, put the runner back on third and have a "do over". It is not the technical rulebook solution, but I believe it is the right solution. Its fourth graders for crying out loud.

I am bothered by the statement that the call cost you the game or chance to tie. I assume none of your batters struck out, no fielding errors, no throwing errors, and heaven forbid any coaching errors.

Use this as a teaching tool, to always be aware of the game situation, which includes the coaches (they believed three outs too). MOVE ON

In the OP, there clearly was a coaching error here. ;)

Thanks
 

I appreciate your input.. It would not have been so bad if

1. we were not called for it in the game previous
2. we were not 2 games away from a perfect season for the 2nd year in a row.

I don't think I will appeal the call, I too believe after sleeping on it to just chalk it up to a learning experience. I am going to report to the league the discrepancy in the way the umpires have called the two incidents. This is my 4th year coaching these boys and they are amazing. They have never been beat in regular season play in 4 years only 1 tie two years before and they were all pretty devastated last night. Although it was a good lesson for them to know they can't win them all, it was sad that a questionable call really made the difference in the game.

and no they don't have to use wooden bats and there are a few pitching restrictions but my point was that it is regular baseball when I said MBL rules

Two things here... one - you'll find that this statement or sentiment really rubs people here the wrong way. I'd refrain going forward or you will deflect conversation from your topic onto ...

Two - It's sad ... and evidence of bad coaching in my opinion ... that in a game where a team allows X number of runs, commits Y errors, gets out Z times, etc --- that the ONE thing that went wrong that can possibly be blamed on someone other than a player is assumed to be the reason for the loss. If you let your team believe that the call caused the loss, you've missed an opportunity to teach a valuable lesson. Just because a particular call came late in a game when the situation was tight doesn't mean all of the other situations in the game where something didn't go perfectly that WERE the fault of the players didn't have a MUCH bigger impact on the result of the game.

Really this is evidence of bad coaching to you? Do you know me? Were you there? Do have a clue what I told my players? Has a bad call NEVER made a difference in a close game? REALLY? Whatever...

I'm guessing R3 eventually scored. How? Was he awarded home?

There's a difference between "made a difference" and "cost us ... an undefeated season"

At this level (heck, at any level), I doubt this was the only "bad" call made all season.

Perfect game ruined by a bad judgement call. Can it be reversed, we know not.

Rule violation sure, it can be protested.

Would I do this if coaching a 10 year old team, not likely, unless it could mean difference between undefeated season or not. Things like that are important to kids if not to umpires. Should coaches teach kids not to be impressed by records, sure, but they are. When do kids learn that coaches will stand up for them?

See if a 10 year old on either team can spell abandonment and then put the kid back on third base and play baseball. No, the UIC doesn't need to know about this...they're kids and they're 10 for crying out loud. This is what's wrong with America today. You'd think the parents were playing? :-)

Funny stuff. When my oldest was 18 months he could operate the first TV we ever had that had a remote control before I could. By 10 he, and his 8 year old brother certainly knew what going to the dugout before it was time to do so meant. Spelling not required to understand.

As if we care.

Gosh how did the parents sleep that night? I promise you, the 10 yr olds didn't care.

Perspective helps sometime
 

This might sound harsh, but your statements on this board actually say a LOT about how you coach your players.

You have to understand many here like me have been umpiring this game for 30+ years and I've seen many 10 years old undefeated teams.

Heck we even have a HS team in our state that set the national record for consecutive wins recently; however, in talking with their coach, who is a friend of mine, they became a much better team "AFTER" they lost a game and quit chasing records.

So good calls happen, bad calls happen, undefeated seasons are a dime a dozen. Many of these 10 yr olds will not even be playing ball in HS, so this season will be just another good memory they can talk about with their own kids and grandkids.:cool:

Thanks
David

If the umpire had already declared "Time" before the 3rd baseman picked up the ball and touched 3rd, would that not be an illegal appeal, making the runner automatically safe?:confused:

No.

Kind of proving my point, really... but I'll play.

Yes, it's EVIDENCE. No, I don't know you - so it's not conclusive (although your reply was more evidence). No, I don't know what you told your players. Do you know what that word ("evidence") means?

I'm not saying a bad call has never made a difference in a close game... but you have completely missed the point... and if this is your general attitude, then I strongly suspect you're teaching your kids about this poorly as well.

Are you really trying to say to us that this ONE single mistaken call by the umpire is the ONLY reason your team lost? Nevermind the 15, 18, 21 ... times your hitters hit into an out. Nevermind the 4, 8, 16, etc times you allowed the other team to get on base, the 2, 4, 8, whatever times you allowed the other team to score.

40-something things didn't go the way you wanted, the way that would have contributed to you winning. ONE of those things was the umpires mistaken call and you blame the loss on that call? To quote you... "Whatever".

You mean yes. As in "Yes, that would not be an illegal appeal, making the runner automatically safe."

Maybe. Or Maybe Not.

"Winning on an appeal is like kissing your sister..." I'm going to use that.

If the third baseman remained on the field because he knew there were only two outs and he was heads up enough as a 10 year old to realize how he could get the runner out, then it seems he was the person most adversely affected by the ruling. Gee, kid, that was heads up and all and pretty impressive that you were the only one on the field who knew what was going on and showed a good knowledge of the rules, but we don't want to hurt anyone's feelings and all. I remember playing Little League when I was 10. I remember keeping track of my batting average and spent hours fielding a tennis ball rebounding from a brick wall. I remember reading the rulebook cover to cover then too. Don't assume that every 10 year old is just in it for the snow-cone.

I agree one shouldn't get one's jock in a wad over a 10U game. But a little perspective is in order. The LL WS in Williamsport is a 12U event. The kids make plays that are worthy of ESPN web-gem highlights. To all appearance the kids take the tournament pretty seriously which is given the same TV coverage as the CWS and the LL games are probably watched by a larger audience. It is kind of amazing how much the kids learn and mature in the 12-24 months after their 10U sno-cone league games. The point is, exactly when are they supposed to learn/be taught the rules?