Mixing the Set and Windup Positions
 

SITUATION:
With runners on, a pitcher starts in the stretch, come to the set position, does the stop correctly, starts a windup and throws to the plate. I call time and ask the umpire to speak to him. He states, "I already know what you are going to ask and it is not a Balk".

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MLB RULEBOOK:
8.01 Legal pitching delivery. There are two legal pitching positions, the Windup Positionand the Set Position, and either position may be used at any time.

(a) The Windup Position. The pitcher shall stand facing the batter, his pivot foot in contact with the pitcher’s plate and the other foot free. From this position any natural movement associated with his delivery of the ball to the batter commits him to the pitch without interruption or alteration. He shall not raise either foot from the ground, except that in his actual delivery of the ball to the batter, he may take one step backward, and one step forward with his free foot.

When a pitcher holds the ball with both hands in front of his body, with his pivot foot in contact with the pitcher’s plate and his other foot free, he will be considered in the Windup Position.

(b) The Set Position. Set Position shall be indicated by the pitcher when he stands facing the batter with his pivot foot in contact with, and his other foot in front of, the pitcher’s plate, holding the ball in both hands in front of his body and coming to a complete stop. From such Set Position he may deliver the ball to the batter, throw to a base or step backward off the pitcher’s plate with his pivot foot. Before assuming Set Position, the pitcher may elect to make any natural preliminary motion such as that known as “the stretch.” But if he so elects, he shall come to Set Position before delivering the ball to the batter. After assuming Set Position, any natural motion associated with his delivery of the ball to the batter commits him to the pitch without alteration or interruption.

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CLOSING
He shall not raise either foot from the ground, except that in his actual delivery of the ball to the batter
- Going from the stretch to the set position you must raise you foot.

From such Set Position he may deliver the ball to the batter, throw to a base or step backward off the pitcher’s plate with his pivot foot.
- It states you can only do the things listed above. It does not say you can go into a windup.

There is a reason why there are two different positions, each with their own rules. I have always learned (Up to D1 Baseball) that you can not mix and match the two positions.

What are you thoughts on this situation? (Only educated conversation with facts added please).

It might have been helpful to know more about what the pitcher did and less about the rule (which most of us know).

I'm envisioning a wind-up type move after F1 has come set. The problem I see for that concerns his feet: if he steps with his free foot toward a base, then he cannot legally pitch to the batter.

OTOH, if he merely "winds up" with some motion of his arms, there's nothing illegal about that. It would defeat the purpose of the set position -- which is to minimize the time between the start of the pitch and delivering to the batter -- but that doesn't make it illegal.

Technically, it's impossible to "mix" the two positions. F1's feet determine whether he is in the windup or the set, and the requirements of each position apply once he has taken his position on the rubber. So the question really concerns whether his delivery is legal, and to rule on that I'd have to know more about it.

I'll also point out that I *think* this move is legal in LL (someone more versed in that code will need to verify), and coach didn't say specifically which rule were being used (I doubt it was "pure" OBR).

Not positive this is true. If the player you're talking about DID, you have an issue. But if he didn't, this is just a bizarre windup.

Stretch is NOT a pitching position - it is a movement prior to coming set.

From your description it is unclear as to what the pitcher's motion really was. For example, if he just raised his arms like we think of in a windup, but only did the one step toward the plate then it's legal.

And, as Bob J pointed out, in LL 12U you are allowed to do a step back then forward windup motion from the set position.

R1 is on 1B.

F1 is right handed.

F1 goes into the stretch with ball in right hand and glove hand on his front leg.

F1 comes to the set position and stops with both hands in front of him.
----- Free and Pivot Foot approx a foot apart.
----- Back to the runner on 1B
----- Perpendicular to the batter.

F1 steps straight backwards (Towards 1B) with hit free foot.

F1 kicks leg forward and continues the pitch to the plate.

Based on just that, I have nothing. What rule (in the windup section) do you think he broke? "Free" can include where it sounds like his foot was.

Assuming he started with his feet in the set position, this is a balk for stepping toward 1B without throwing.

I do not know LL rules, so if this is LL you'll have to check with those guys.

We use the MLB rulebook unless we have a specific rule to change or add. This is a 13/14 Rec League where the players are just learning to steal and pickoff. I do not want the kids to learn the wrong mechanics early and allow the umpires to allow it to happen. That is why I want to get clarification on this rule.

Consider this to be the windup (albeit unorthodox) position ... we've all seen the backward step on a windup go further toward 1st than 2nd. I still see nothing wrong here, at least as I'm visualizing.

Mike, I'm reading this F1 as starting in the set, not the windup. That would make more sense with a runner on.

I could be wrong: F1 cannot both be "perpendicular to the batter" (sounds like he's facing the batter in the windup) and have "his back to the runner at 1B" (sounds like he's facing 3B in the set).

The legality of the move depends on what position he's in. Where are his feet relative to the rubber? Is his free foot contacting the rubber or in front of it?

With the pitcher stepping back, this HAS to be a windup... so compare his actions to that rule to determine if he broke one.

Imagine pitcher with feet appearing to face 3rd, but the body facing home... could that not be "facing the batter"?

We will say parallel then.

As you know, what he does during the pitching motion does not determine whether he's in the windup or the set. It's strictly the position of his feet when he takes the rubber.

The two parts of the rules that I feel make this a balk are:

1) When he steps back while in the set position it is toward first base which makes this a balk.

2) When he steps back while in the set position he is bringing his free foot off the ground to step back (Not going to the plate but doing a windup) which makes this a balk.

Both of these say, "While in the set position".

What part of the "Windup position" rule has he broken? MByron is envisioning the initial foot setup as the problem. In my head, I'm not - but I might not be envisioning exactly what this kid did. It's very HTBT.

The rule that he has broken is he is setup in the set position. Is he not?

I don't know... I'm not there.

If his non-pivot foot is not (or nearly) in contact with the pitcher's plate, he is in the set position. He has balked by not throwing to first IMO.

-Josh

LL

Not a balk in 12 and under divisions

Is a balk in the 13 and up divisions.

BECAUSE - with the runners locked on base until the pitch reaches the batter in 12U there's really no advantage gained by a pitcher.

{Dreaming} Why can't LL, USSSA, etc get together and standardize? {/Dreaming}

I was shocked that 9U USSSA was leading off a few weekends ago. It's nuts. If a runner gets on first, they should just place him on third because in two pitches he is there anyways

-Josh

No free foot limitation in pure OBR anymore.

Just google Cliff Lee or JP Howell to see this as a legal in OBR. As long as the pitcher doesn't stretch to a stop he can windup or not from this foot position that looks like the set.
If you would balk this backward step to first in the OP would you balk a normal windup stepping back to 2B with R2 and R3?
However, these kids are headed to FED so you might as well stop it now.

Perhaps someone should take the young lad aside and instruct him as to the proper way to arrive at the set position, and what his legal options are from that point.

Citation please. It's illegal by rule but ignored in MLB, like not stopping from the set with no runners on.

Well this youngster is not on my team or the problem would be fixed (There wouldn't have been a problem anyway). However when I tried to correct the situation the Umpire made me look like an *** and didn't correct it himself. Even the player's Coach had an attitude that I had the nerve to stop the game to ask the question. Time for me to move to Travel Ball.

You do not have to stop at the set from the strech with no runners on.

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MLB RULE 8.01

Rule 8.01(b) Comment: With no runners on base, the pitcher is not required to come to a complete stop when using the Set Position. If, however, in the umpire’s judgment, a pitcher delivers the ball in a deliberate effort to catch the batter off guard, this delivery shall be deemed a quick pitch, for which the penalty is a ball. See Rule 8.05(e) Comment.

Rule 8.05(e) Comment: A quick pitch is an illegal pitch. Umpires will judge a quick pitch as one delivered before the batter is reasonably set in the batter’s box. With runners on base the penalty is a balk; with no runners on base, it is a ball. The quick pitch is dangerous and should not be permitted.

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8.01(a)....Windup.... The pitcher shall stand facing the batter, his pivot foot in contact with the pitcher's plate and the other foot free.

8.01(b)....Set....when he stands facing the batter with his pivot foot in contact with, and his other foot in front of the pitcher's plate......

BTW 8.01(b) comment allows no stop with no runners.

What rulebook are you using?

MLB Rulebook

The question was for mbyron.

Ohh, ok.

Coach with all due respect, It's not my job as an umpire to "coach" a kid. From what you describe it very well may be a balk, depending on the specific age and league rule set you're playing under. Umpires at varying levels will allow some infractions go un-punished for the good of the game at that specific level. That is, sure it's a balk, but is he really gaining an advantage with what he's doing at that particular level of play? From what you describe, no, that particular pitcher isn't gaining an advantage over your baserunners. It's not just what is written in the rule book, it's also what was the intent of the rule. If it were me coaching, I'd have my kid standing on the next base every pitch.

+1

Unless you're the league director, how is the highlighted portion your job? For the life of me, I can't imagine letting any coach dictate to me what I'm going to allow.

In this league the pitcher gets two balk warning (Meant to teach the kid what he is doing wrong). I know it is not an Umpire's job to teach the kid the game but in the league I am in, it kind of is. The only thing that got me heated was the comment and attitude of the Umpire when I stopped the game.

The first couple times my runner came back to 1st because of the step. After I called time and got the reaction of the Umpire we ran all over him. I am not saying anyone here would act like this but I just wanted a clarification and a discussion.

As I stated "I do not want" not "I am going to prevent this from happening".

Fair enough, but I thought the language (particularly the first "allow") I highlighted was a bit too authoritative for a coach. At this age group (I work basketball, so there may be "cultural" differences), I get coaches who think they can coach the officials as well, and that doesn't go over well with me.

I voice my concerns when I feel they are wrong but do not coach them (That is what their Head Umpire is for). And sorry for sounding authoritative, that was not my intent.

Isn't he the guy with the dirty shin guards? Sorry, couldn't help myself. I'm so out of control.;)

Haha

The line between the two isn't that thick, but I'll say it doesn't seem like you crossed it.

All depends on how you want to define facing the batter. Is it his body that needs to be facing? His face?

Frankly, I'm not taking that end of the stick. Its most certainly not a balk as he is not doing anything to violate 8.05. No penalty set forth in 8.01 so if its anything its simply a "don't do that" but in reality, I don't really see a problem with what is described in the OP.

As described, I agree with the Coach. When a MLB pitcher takes the mound (and that's who the rules are written for; other leagues jsut use them), "everyone knows" whether the pitcher is in the set or the wind-up position. If F1 was in a set and stepped as described, it would be a balk. IF F1 was in the wind-up and moved as described and then stopped, it would be a balk.

It's an issue at lower levels because not "everyone knows" what position F1 is in. So, NCAA and FED have specific rules on the foot placement that define the position.

"Well this youngster is not on my team or the problem would be fixed (There wouldn't have been a problem anyway). However when I tried to correct the situation the Umpire made me look like an *** and didn't correct it himself. Even the player's Coach had an attitude that I had the nerve to stop the game to ask the question. Time for me to move to Travel Ball."

Not your place to correct your opponent's players. Not the umpire's job either.

From your OP the umpire has already told you that this was not a balk. That should have ended the discussion on the field. I hope it did, and that you are not one of these pesty rats that are continually ranting during the game, because if you are, and you move up to "Travel Ball" (whatever that is) and higher, and you continue the rant, your life as a coach will be miserable.

Stated again.

It seems like he responded in the only appropriate manner after being told by the umpire; he ran all over the pitcher in question.

I agree. It seems as though there was a lot of negativity to the Coach's questions on this, or maybe I'm just more sensitive to it. Either (or both) might have something to do with the activities here of the past week or so.

I just think you all hate rats :)

I am a coach, but not for my childs team (I don't have any). Does that make me a rat?

It's not whether you coach but how. Do you cheat, lie to gain an advantage, or otherwise try to manipulate the umpires and the game for the sake of winning?

Do you do any of that, shrug, and justify it with, "it's just part of the game"?

I can't say I do anything like that.

I coach the game the way it is suppose to be played.

I don't know ... trying to correct the other team's pitcher and getting upset that the umpire wouldn't coach the kid sounds a little ratty to me. Jury's still out.

Not to mention your first post and someone else's last post timing...

All well and good, but there are coaches who claim their unethical behavior is just part of the way it's supposed to be played. Poor ethics in the name of gamesmanship. Happens in all sports, we just have a different name for it in basketball.

I called time to ask a question about the situation. I never said anything to the Umpire after him giving me the answer (Prior to the question being asked). I never tried to correct the pitcher at all. I could have went to the coach and voiced my concern but I didn't (Should have).

I have no clue what this means.

Why should you have? Seems to me the best way to teach this lesson you wanted to teach was the way you did it; taking advantage of it.

I have played many years of baseball and as a coach I feel I should coach everyone (Wierd I know). Even if I see someone on the other team doing something incorrectly I want to correct them, but don't because I don't want to show up their coach. I coach youth baseball to teach them for the next level. If they don't learn what they have to learn prior to the next level they are behind the power curve. Maybe this is why I am a volunteer coach in a league that I don't have a kid in.

I am also one of those coaches that teaches my kids by showing them. I do sliding practice, diving practice, infield practice etc. at practice with the kids. I don't like just telling them and getting on them when they do it wrong because the misunderstood me. If I show them there is not much misunderstanding about that.

Just going by your own words: "However when I tried to correct the situation the Umpire made me look like an *** and didn't correct it himself."
Should have? No, you shouldn't have - but you've made my point for me.

Maybe you do, maybe you don't... time will tell.

I have a lot of stolen bases on 2nd pitch after runner sees it with this move, but no balks.

You are just the kind of coach that I would want coaching my kids. Active, knowledgeable, and a desire that is lacking in most volunteer coaches. I also admire your desire to learn the rules of the game; another thing that most volunteer (and pro) coaches will not do. But, please remember that umpires also know the rules (for the most part), and the majority of them don’t like to have coaches holding rules clinics during the game.

After reading several of your recent posts, Coach Dykhoff, I'd say you are doing your kids a great service teaching them fundamentals and the correct rules. However, one more thing they (and you) will need to understand is that, in a lot of rec ball league's umpires only know what their own fathers have taught them years ago, and that information can be incorrect. You will get nowhere trying to correct them.

Coach, if you have seen this post, then disregard.

http://forum.officiating.com/basebal...1-edition.html

I concur - you won't get the best umpiring in those youth games from a rules standpoint (at least around here) but you won't get the best baseball either.

To worry about the umpires is doing the kids at that level a disservice. Its teaching them to whine, complain, assume the umpire is wrong, etc. Then, if any of them get good, they have a bad approach and attitude that holds them back. The best players are the ones that don't flip out when something doesn't go their way. They just take a deep breath, retoe the rubber or step back in, and do what they know how to do.

Baseball is a calm sport, kind of like golf in that sense. You can't be all hyper out there. Teach your kids to be cool to umpires and they'll become better players and probably better people.