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[Simply The Best]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

Completely untrue. I have coached. When I coached, I was a rat too.

Have you asked your son or daughter what they learned from you acting like a "rat"? Have you?

[MikeStrybel]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Can the term be overused? Yes.

Does it sometimes apply? Yes (to most coaches some of the time, to some coaches most of the time).

Is it more prevelant the higher you go? Probably.

It's kind of like the FYC. It has it's place, but can be overused.

I can think of several other pejoratives that are also overused and equally unacceptable. They may have their place but that doesn't mean we should encourage their use.

[TussAgee11]

For me its more of a term to describe behavior rather than name-call. And I think most umpires would say the same. Most of us really don't care enough to sit in the parking lot, locker room, or meetings and name call. Because the guy that would be called a "rat" simply isn't worth the time to discuss him. But if we are talking about a situation that happened, I may say it just to convey that manager's attitude at the time.

Does this really make me a worse umpire?

And as for on-field f-boming in the pro game - its a whole different animal up there. Everyone knows everyone. Its not like a 20 game varsity HS schedule or 10 series NCAA. Your talking night in night out for 5 months. Sometimes you have to act pissed off just to maintain control and integrity. Its no different than a teacher who yells at the students. Are they really pissed? No.

Everyone has their way of doing things, just because someone says something doesn't mean they MUST be a certain way or another. I know guys who do stuff on the field I could NEVER get away with, but they do because its their personality and how they get their respect. I get mine another way. We can all umpire...

So get off the high horse, the oxygen up there must be a bit thin.

[dash_riprock]

You guys are completely missing the point.

I never said I don't treat RATS with respect. I do, and I hold no grudges that would interfere with my work. I also never said RATS shouldn't be expected to cheat. In fact, I said it's part of the game.

A RAT is not necessarily a bad person, and I made no comment about lessons being taught to children. But, without a doubt, players and coaches are RATS. The first base coach will give the safe sign when he knows the ball beat his runner by a hair. The catcher will yank a pitch he knows is a ball into the strike zone. The batter will writhe in pain after the ball hits the bat handle. A fielder will raise his glove triumphantly when he's just missed a tag. They are all being dishonest and attempting to get me to make a mistake that will benefit their team. That's a freakin' RAT. It's the perfect word.

We got RATS in the dugout
Bedbugs on deck
What a mess - this game's in tatters
I've been shattered

Shee-doo-bee

[MikeStrybel]

Originally Posted by TussAgee11

For me its more of a term to describe behavior rather than name-call. And I think most umpires would say the same. Most of us really don't care enough to sit in the parking lot, locker room, or meetings and name call. Because the guy that would be called a "rat" simply isn't worth the time to discuss him. But if we are talking about a situation that happened, I may say it just to convey that manager's attitude at the time.

Does this really make me a worse umpire?

And as for on-field f-boming in the pro game - its a whole different animal up there. Everyone knows everyone. Its not like a 20 game varsity HS schedule or 10 series NCAA. Your talking night in night out for 5 months. Sometimes you have to act pissed off just to maintain control and integrity. Its no different than a teacher who yells at the students. Are they really pissed? No.

Everyone has their way of doing things, just because someone says something doesn't mean they MUST be a certain way or another. I know guys who do stuff on the field I could NEVER get away with, but they do because its their personality and how they get their respect. I get mine another way. We can all umpire...

So get off the high horse, the oxygen up there must be a bit thin.

In light of what I see displayed here, I would rather be here than in the sewer with some of you.

It is hypocritic to write mean spirited pieces directed at fellow umpires and then profess integrity. It is delusional to believe that using a derisive term in the 'privacy' of a forum but not elsewhere is acceptable. If you cannot say it face to face then it is hardly more than insecurity on display.

I also notice that when asked if you have coached competitive teams, the question goes unanswered. That tells the tale. Don't expect coaches to behave better than you do.

[MikeStrybel]

Originally Posted by dash_riprock

You guys are completely missing the point.

I never said I don't treat RATS with respect. I do, and I hold no grudges that would interfere with my work. I also never said RATS shouldn't be expected to cheat. In fact, I said it's part of the game.

A RAT is not necessarily a bad person, and I made no comment about lessons being taught to children. But, without a doubt, players and coaches are RATS. The first base coach will give the safe sign when he knows the ball beat his runner by a hair. The catcher will yank a pitch he knows is a ball into the strike zone. The batter will writhe in pain after the ball hits the bat handle. A fielder will raise his glove triumphantly when he's just missed a tag. They are all being dishonest and attempting to get me to make a mistake that will benefit their team. That's a freakin' RAT. It's the perfect word.

We got RATS in the dugout
Bedbugs on deck
What a mess - this game's in tatters
I've been shattered

Shee-doo-bee

I bet you have never missed a pitch, blown a call or done anything to make experienced eyes roll. That is the epitome of arrogance. You expect others to be better than you are. Nice.

[dash_riprock]

Originally Posted by MikeStrybel

I bet you have never missed a pitch, blown a call or done anything to make experienced eyes roll. That is the epitome of arrogance. You expect others to be better than you are. Nice.

Where on earth did you get that from? All I said was RATS are dishonest and they cheat, and I gave you four very common examples. I didn't say I expected RATS to be better than I (better at what, I have no idea), I said I expected them to cheat. Please show me what I wrote that displayed arrogance.

[UmpJM]

When I coached, I did not behave like a "rat".

Now that I umpire rather than coach, I still do not refer to coaches as "Rats", either on boards such as this, nor in conversation with umpires I know.

Just as there are, in fact, umpires who engage in "Smitty" behavior, so too are there coaches who engage in "ratlike" behavior. That was apparent to me back when I was coaching, and my experience as an umpire hasn't changed either perception.

When I first started posting on this board as a coach, I noticed the use of the term, but decided it was not worth concerning myself about. When my colleagues now use it in conversation it doesn't bother me in the least.

My personal opinion is that it is best not to go into working a game with the mindset that "all coaches are rats", but it would be foolish to go into a game without realizing that ANY coach could become a "rat" in a NY minute.

I find that if I treat all the participants in the game with respect, they are much more likely to respond in kind. But I don't much care for being taken advantage of, so I remain warily vigilant as well.

JM

[TussAgee11]

Originally Posted by MikeStrybel

In light of what I see displayed here, I would rather be here than in the sewer with some of you.

It is hypocritic to write mean spirited pieces directed at fellow umpires and then profess integrity. It is delusional to believe that using a derisive term in the 'privacy' of a forum but not elsewhere is acceptable. If you cannot say it face to face then it is hardly more than insecurity on display.

I also notice that when asked if you have coached competitive teams, the question goes unanswered. That tells the tale. Don't expect coaches to behave better than you do.

You quoted me and then said nothing relevant to what I said. Whatever.

JM says it best... respect is that status quo for all until we hit SNAFU. And when it hits, that's why they have their bars and we have ours...

[HokieUmp]

Originally Posted by MikeStrybel

Wow. When a guy condescends and whines here he is applauded. When I ask others to treat each other better it is called being on a high horse. (sigh)

Perhaps its the condescending tone, and the insults thrown with it - as in, labeling fellow umpires as insecure. In fact, that's probably it.

I believe that some here pretend to be tough. They pose and offer advice that is bad for those still trying to learn our craft. I don't think they have the courage of their convictions but enjoy pretending that they do.

That's not what I asked.

Do you have a point?

Point being, we're expected to be professional on the field, and not stoop to their levels, and then after a game, expected to forget and move on. Meanwhile, rats scurry to a telephone to run down the umpires on the field, after saying to their faces 'good job.' Ragging to other members of their 'society' is one thing - what I mentioned is something else, and that makes it rat behavior. YMMV, apparently.

I would consider the reasons why they turn on you.

Well, it's when a call goes against them, usually. Or perhaps when their pitcher couldn't find the strike zone with a map and a flashlight. And that's evidently MY fault. And perhaps it's because coaches have this tendency to NOT put a previous game behind them, or because they have the 'us vs them' mentality for umpires, and are ready for a fight from the word go. Are you implying that doesn't happen where you are, ever?

Have you ever coached a competitive team for a season?

Sorry, no. I don't have the time for it, don't feel the need to live vicariously through kids, and I know the rules too well to be a coach.

[HokieUmp]

Originally Posted by Simply The Best

"Rat" is used to demean another human being and is not any less offensive than the "N" word.

You sure about that?

Might want to re-consider that philosophical stance.

[MrUmpire]

Originally Posted by MikeStrybel

In light of what I see displayed here, I would rather be here than in the sewer with some of you.

And

It is hypocritic to write mean spirited pieces directed at fellow umpires and then profess integrity.

Hmmmmm.

[MikeStrybel]

To borrow from Richard Roeper -

Four thoughts for the price of one:

It is funny how some of you insist that coaches who try all means to win are the problem. They aren't. The rules allow competent umpires to address them. Do your job.

If a kid swipes a tag and tries to sell it, that is hardly cheating. If a player grabs his hand like he was hit, when in fact he wasn't, he is and you need to do your job. It sounds like some of you don't know how to handle these things.

I know JM and respect what he has to say. He has never been subversive to me nor show disrespect at an opposing idea. JM and I do (did) not live vicariously through kids. We chose to employ our knowledge of the game to make it more enjoyable for our children. It is sad to think that some of you think parenting is part time.

I have umpired at some of the highest levels, here and abroad. I take pride in working hard to be a good example to other umpires. In the end, some of you need to think about that before you write another put down or encourage others to accept name calling as acceptable behavior.

Happy Easter to those of you who celebrate the day.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by HokieUmp

Do you ever get down from your high horse, or just have supplies airlifted in?

The funniest part of the perfect response.

[LilLeaguer]

Originally Posted by MikeStrybel

We chose to employ our knowledge of the game to make it more enjoyable for our children. It is sad to think that some of you think parenting is part time.

Are you trying to imply that we who don't choose to coach youth sports are inferior parents?