Coverage Question
 

Disclaimer: Not an umpire. Not a coach. Wasn't at this game. Just trying to answer a question for someone that was.

R1 1 out.

Groundball. Force out at 2nd. Throw to first.

2 man crew.

1. Is the field ump responsible for determining the outs at both 2nd and 1st?
2. If so, is the FU also responsible for determining if the FPSR was violated?

In this game there was contact between R1 and F6 at the base and the question came up as to who has responsibility for that on this type of play.

Thanks

Spence,

1. Yes. The Base Ump is responsible for both the call at 2B and the call at 1B.

2. You might get two different answers on this one. I believe that the BU is responsible for a possible FPSR violation at 2B UNTIL the pivot man releases the throw. Once the throw is released, the PU is responsible for the FPSR violation.

Others might suggest that the PU has primary responsibility for the FPSR violation throughout the play.

JM

Nothing to add but a "me too."

Personally, I'll go with JM's first answer. The BU has primary on it until the throw is released, but as the PU, I'm watching the entire play at second to make sure something doesn't happen just as the BU turns to take the call at first.

I agree with both. I, as PU will watch the entire evnt at second on my way up to third.

Why are you going to third?

R1 only, ball never leaves the infield, you do not have coverage at third.

Agree.

One more question in regards to the play at 2nd.

R1 slides into 2nd and then pops up and makes contact with the SS. FPSR violation?

rich, what rotation do you have with a runner on first as PU. we are trained to have play at third, if there is one. lets say that F4 chooses to make play at first and R1 rounds second and play is made on him at third. where are you?

Spence,

Under FED rules (but not NCAA) a "pop-up" slide into the pivot man is a violation of the FPSR.

JM

jophyal,

There are two schools of thought on the "1st to 3rd" rotation.

A. If the ball does not leave the infield, the BU "has it all" on the bases, and the PU "stays home".

B. Whether or not the ball leaves the infield, the PU will have any play on the R1 at 3B.

I believe Rich is suggesting he subscribes to "A".

The CCA manual (NCAA mechanics) said "A" last year, and this year says "B".

I am fine with doing it either way, but it is something I ALWAYS pregame with my partner.

JM

jm, thanks. i have always been a "b" guy and we normally rotate that way. I can see where "a" would save my legs in the summer when we do 3 games in this heat.

jophyal,

It seems to be one of those things that "pendulums" over the years.

From my experience, each has its advantages/disadvantages, and "personal preference" of one over the other is largely determined by what was considered "proper" when a given individual first "learned" the rotation.

JM

+1, Don't start a game without it.

I'm trailing up towards the left side of the mound and when I recognize F4 is throwing to first, I move in that direction in case a wild throw goes out of play or near a fence/line.

And if the ball gets thrown back to third, I'm ready to take a wild throw towards the fence/line and also am in a good position to make a call at the plate.

As you can tell, I've never really bought into making the PU cover third in this situation (where the ball doesn't leave the infield). I can easily get proper angles on both plays (at first and back at third) as the base umpire.

Last week I was working with a strange partner who showed up late for a DH and so I was prepared for anything. We had a routine ground ball hit with R1, play made to first, ball gets away, no fence, ball rolling towards DBT. My usual partners would have been on that ball, but instead this guy was standing at third base (even though the runner didn't try to advance until the throw got away).

(I'm OK with a partner wanting to cover third, but I think the discussion changes when there's no fence and we have to deal with DBT lines on the field.)

I'm not saying that you guys are overemphasizing the importance of a pregame, but:

If you're an experienced umpire, you can easily adapt to a partner that decides to cover third there, even if that's not your normal coverage. See partner, let him take call. As the BU, I'm never assuming the PU is going to be there anyway -- what if he trips over a bat or his own feet on the way to third? It's my call until I recognize he's going to be there (or he calls me off), so I prepare for the play at first as though I'm going to have to bounce back anyway.

R1 only, infield batted ball, Single A Minor Leagues now have PU head up in case of "snow-ball fight". (bad throws). PU would take play at third.

rich i see your side of it. i too like a good pre game. i try to let my BU know my expected rotation between each change in batters and baserunning changes. i am a BIG FAN of my PU verbally telling me where he is and i yell as i am going up line, getting a tag up...

Minor league fields have good fences.

Still, I think it's a miserable mechanic and is mainly designed to placate those that think angle over distance is all a bunch of hooey (mainly the rats).

The play at first doesn't require good distance (it's a "force" play) and a throw back to third will open up to the right angle -- and those plays are rarely close, anyway.

BU should be prepared to take every base unless he is called off of third by the PU. I do not care either way, just communicate this with me and I will adjust.

Peace

And "proper" goes back and forth depending on which play "whoever is in charge" got burned on last year. ;)

Maybe I should start a new thread...

R1, batted ball to F4, close play at first. Coach asks you for help from your partner...
Would you,while BU, ask for help from PU in this sitch?
If you were PU would you be looking at first or runner touching/missing second?

Thanks for all of ya'lls help this year.

For just a simple play at first? Heck no!!!

And as a PU I would not give help on a call like that for a simply play.

Peace

Why would a coach ask you to get help on this play? You're starting in B, you take a few steps, you come set, you make the call.

Any particular reason the coach is asking?

(I've asked a plate umpire for help at first twice in 24 years. The last time was in 2001, so I'm probably due again soon.)

I had a partner ask me for help after a coach came out and asked him what he saw. I followed Jrut's POV. I would not have asked for help if I were BU. This is just on topic of the two mechanics we were discussing and I asked.

Nothing wrong with asking. I just would find it odd that another umpire would go to an umpire that does not have responsibility for this play. He should have told the coach to go pound sand on this one.

Peace

Some umpires feel that it's "nice" to placate coaches that ask for "help." They are just trying to get the umpire to shop the call to see if the other umpire will see things differently (in other words, change the call to their liking).

After the game, did you tell your partner to own his call and not come to you just cause the coach asked?

I said it with a little more color in it than that. But yes, I told him. I told him that next time he came to me he better at least be able to point out a hot spectator or something. That way I could look over there and act like I was talking about the call...

I worked a game a few years ago with a not-very-good umpire. I held a thorough pregame with him. Then he asked me for help on three plays at first base when he started in the C position. He didn't take a single step to try to get proper position to make the calls -- I guess he figured that's what the plate umpire was for.

(His C position could be called C- or D+ since he could've taken three steps and been at third base.)

Only if the umpire judges that the slide constituted illegal contact or illegal alteration of the play. 8-4-2b

I agree that in most instances, I would judge this to be INT. I'm simply pointing out that it's still the illegal contact or alteration, not the illegal slide as such, that is punished with INT here.

Preferred mechanic at all 2 man levels now. PU can retreat once R1 is retired at 2nd to 1BXL OR can cut across to 1B line.

Which would be Single A, as I mentioned.

Maybe in the pros. We haven't bought into this yet here. Likely won't, either, since the crews set their own mechanics.