Dropped Third Strike - Check Swing
 

OBR:
No runners, 0 outs. 0 balls, 2 strikes
Pitch in dirt, batter half swing, ruled ball by home umpire. Catcher first tags runner then appeals for ruling on check swing. Base ump rules swing.

Question does the timing of the tag matter in this situation? What if catcher throw ball into LF (over throws 3B)?

The timing of the tag does not matter. The BR is out if he's tagged, even if the appeal happens after the tag. The batter becomes a runner (and so is liable to be tagged out) after a third strike not legally caught, not after the BU rules on the half swing. So your "overthrow" is irrelevant (I assume F2 is throwing the ball around after the K).

When I'm BU, this is the situation where I will give my ruling on a half swing without being asked. I follow the Bob Jenkins school on this point, and will come up with my ruling when:

1. the batter offered
2. the PU doesn't get it immediately
3. F2 doesn't legally catch the pitch, and
4. the BR can run (2 outs or no R1)

The rationale for jumping in with this call is fairness to the BR.

Voluntary strike - the BU can, and should, call strike if he has a swing once PU has ruled no swing on a D3K.

Agreed w/ mbyron and TussAgee, but it's a reasonably advanced mechanic. That is, if you do it as BU with an inexperienced PU and no pre-game on it, expect a "deer in the headlights" look at best.

Throw Into Left Field
 

Why would F2 be throwing toward LF, no runners were on base?

Throwing it around the infield after the K. I had to ponder that a moment, too. ;)

Makes sense

Better to get it right than worry about an inexperienced partner's overreaction. Well done, Bob! :)

This definitely needs a pregame. And if you pregame it the mechanic should be for the PU going to BU IMMEDIATELY after the uncaught 3rd strike/check swing.

Initiation by the BU can create a bad situation. For example, say it was a full count and the PU has a checked swing (thus BB). Now here comes BU with a reversal when DEF hasn't appealed or PU hasn't asked for help . OC is going to get fired up.

If it gives his BR a chance to reach 1B, he won't say a word.

This is, as others have pointed out, an advanced mechanic. If you're not comfortable using it, then don't. But it does not have bad consequences when used properly.

Just to clarify, are you suggesting that the BU make the call on a check swing WITHOUT the PU asking for help?

MikeStrybel,

Although it's not entirely clear from your post who you are responding to, if it's any of mbyron, TussAgee, or Bob Jenkins, that's not EXACTLY what they're saying - but it's close.

I believe they are suggesting that in this sitch, IDEALLY the PU will go to his BU immediately, even if the defense does not immediately request that he do so.

However, under this advanced mechanic, should the PU should fail to come to him immediately, the BU is instructed to make the call of strike (assuming he judged an "offer", of course.) even without being asked by the PU.

Yes, I'm sure.

JM

Standard Mechanic: PU waits for coach or catcher to ask, then asks BU.

Advanced Mechanic: PU asks without being asked.

Really Advanced Mechanic: BU responds, even if not asked (but gives PU a beat or two to ask), and then only if it's a strike AND if B can become BR.

Yep. Bob listed when. (How long have you been gone? This has been an accepted mechanic in NCAA for quite some time and worked its way to high school years ago.)

It prevents the batter from becoming a sitting duck.

Really advanced. :eek: In my instruction, this is really basic. Others MMV.

This Voluntary Strike mechanic is in all of the pro manuals.

In my mind, I'm still trying to figure out what's so advanced about it...because it's really not as complicated as everybody makes it sounds...I've tried for three years or more in my pregame meetings to use it, and everybody's afraid of doing something "new"

oh well.

In answer to the question posed by another, I was out of the country for 6 years. I worked closely with MLB Asia during that time doing umpire development in several countries. I never saw the BU make a call w/o being appealed to. I understand the concept but can't say I am comfortable calling a strike w/o having my partner prompt my intervention. I also would be a bit concerned if he made the call without me asking for help. A couple guys here have worked with me and know this is not ego being displayed. I have gone for help without coach/catcher prompting for about a decade now. I have no problem asking for assistance in an effort to allow the players to decide the game rather than my missed call. Do any of you make your appeal call aftetr the catcher points to you? It would seem that it could be construed as if you are responding to that rather than your partner.

Does anyone have a video link of NCAA or MLB umpires making such a call without being appealed to? I would love to see it in action.

For what it's worth, while I was gone I ran into a guy who worked one of the recent Olympics baseball series. I was used to calling the "ball" and saying "no, he didn't" as emphasis. He taught me to abandon that mechanic because few things look worse than a PU being assertive in proclaiming the batter did not strike at the pitch on to hear, "yes, he did!" a second after he points down for help. I learned a valuable lesson that day and maybe this mechanic will wind up working its way into my games sooner than not.

I agree it looks bad when BU overturns an assertive "no he didn't." I still like the mechanic however, but I only use it when I am certain the batter did not offer, and only when I am working with a competent and trusted partner.

"No he didn't" tells everyone I saw that checked swing and the batter did not offer. My partner had better have seen the end of the bat before he overturns it, and if he did, then I had no business selling it in the first place. This is not a secret signal arrangement - I will always tell my partner to give me what he had on any check swing appeal.

It's PU's job to get that call. Of course there are times when PU really does need help (basically when his view is blocked), but those times are relatively rare. If PU is doing his job, 90%+ of all check swing appeals will remain balls.

Thanks. I agree with the mechanic of 'giving me what you saw'. My partner is getting paid to call the game too.

My concern is the BU quick calling a half swing/check swing without my asking for the appeal or help. I can see a veteran big dogging a rookie and watching that guy move on to another sport in the future. Yes, pre-game will clarify this but I still feel better going to my partner (asked by coach/catcher or not) if I have any doubt and him waiting for that inquiry. For now, any ways. ;)

Considering in pro, by rule, you HAVE to appeal if they ask, I don't really see the big deal with a base umpire volunteering the information ahead of time. If he has a swing, they are most certainly going to ask for the appeal.

In FED, I guess you could point out that by rule you DON'T have to honor the request, but again, if BU saw a swing and PU didn't, it was presumably close and you should know to ask for the help.

Half the time I ask right as everyone is screaming "Check it!" because I already know the question is coming. Pet peeve is when I'm BU, PU takes 5 minutes to come to me, and I have to ring up a strike. You hear much less complaints the quicker it all happens.

"No, he didn't (go)" remains the mechanic taught at proschool, reinforced at PBUC and practiced in professional baseball.

PBUC Umpire Manual (2010 edition, page 97)

"All decisions on checked swing shall be called loudly and clearly by the plate umpire. If the pitch is a ball and the batter does not swing at the pitche, the mechanic to be used is" 'Ball; no, he didn't go." If the pitch is a ball but the batter commits on the checked swing, the mechanic to be used is: 'Yes, he went,' while pointing directly at the batter and then coming up with the strike motion."

What has changed over the years is that the PU does not point at the batter when announcing "no he didn't go."

The mechanic, as you say, tells all that you saw the movement but do not judge it as an offer, rather than leave some wondering if you just missed what they consider to be a swing

Have you asked them about this mechanic?

Why?

I worked a college DH yesterday and pregamed this scenario. In the third inning, I didn't get a good look at the half swing. I immediately went to my partner without prompting from the catcher or coach. When my partner said, "No swing.", the defensive coach loudly said, "Why ask him? That's your call. Stick with what you had." I just glared at him for a moment. At the half inning he walked a couple of new baseballs to me and apologized. I told him that I asked for help in order to make sure. I then told him that no one believes our intial calls or appeals any way and he laughed.

It would have been far worse if he had called the swing without me asking for help.

Remember that it's only when:

Checked Swing
AND D3k
AND B becomes BR
(AND BU has a Swing, for the umprompted signal)

It's not every checked swing. It happens once or twice a season to me at PU (now I'll have three in my next game).

(And it may have been that sitation in your game, you didn't say.)

It was. I WILL ALWAYS go for help if I need it. I just find the offering of a different call without prompting to be an invitation for a bunch of nonsense. I am glad my partner did not do that.

For what it's worth, Coach Randall never made a peep. You gotta love that guy.