Help me win a bet
 

High school rules and mechanics

Batter/runner beats the ball to first base but does not touch the base as he overruns it. Ball arrives late but fielder has his foot on the bag.

What is the call and mechanic the umpire uses?

Rita

I was taught: at first base ONLY,

1. If the runner beats the ball, signal safe: you must signal safe/out on a play at 1B to indicate whether the runner beat the ball.
2. If the defense appeals the missed base, rule on the appeal. F3 gloving the throw with his foot on the base is not by itself an appeal, and 8.2.3 has FINALLY been deleted in the new case book (it had an "accidental" appeal play).

They finally dumped 8.2.3 you say? Glad to hear that.

Agree with mbyron with one small nit -- ust the same mecahnic you would use if BR had touched the base. If he's safe by just a little, a standard "safe". IF he's safe by a mike, then no call or a casual safe.

Has anyone ever seen this play occur at a level beyond tee ball? In over 30 years of umpiring, I have never seen the BR miss first base on this play.

Enjoy your season and be safe.

Mike,

I hate to say this, but in FED ball I have seen more foul tips caught by someone other than F2 (2 times) then had this play in a game (1 time).

I have seen a runner in a high school game miss 1B.

Sorry I can't help! The NCAA has a gaming policy :)

I'm just a fan, but I saw this happen last season in an NCAA Division I game. There were 2 out and a runner at 3B. No signal was given by the 1st base ump, and the 2nd baseman for the defense picked up on it immediately. He came running over yelling at the 1st baseman. And, the first baseman then tagged the batter for out number 3.

I knew that it was a rare play because in between innings, the umpires got together to discuss whether the run should count. After a brief meeting, the plate ump turned to the press box and waved his hands above his head indicating no run.

Bob and mbyron, your saying to "Safe" the BR then upon proper appeal by the defense call him out?

Why couldnt you just call him out on the first time by with emphasis just as you would call him safe if F3 had a pulled foot? Or is it more like calling a Runner "Safe" when advancing to a base even though he left early, or missed a base in between, then upon proper appeal from the defense calling him "Out"?

I've not seen this play however want to get it right if/when I ever do.

Thanks.

This. Always make the call as if he touched the base. If it's a close call, give it a big "safe" as you would if he really were safe.

Because once the runner misses the base, it becomes an appeal play. An appeal must be intentional.

Twice in college, twice in HS.

And, one appeal in college, but the runner had touched first.

Had this come up once in a high school game last season and that's the only time I can remember having to deal with it.

Nobody on, me in "A", ground ball on the infield. On the batter-runner's last stride, he stepped over the base. His foot missed the bag and landed on the outfield side of first just a couple of clicks before the throw got there.

I signalled "safe". The runner returned to first with no appeal. Then the fun started...

Defensive coach wants to discuss play with me. He wants an out because "the runner didn't touch first base". Tried to explain that it's an appeal play and it's too late to appeal once the runner has safely returned to first base.

He's not buying it, so he goes crying to the plate umpire. Plate guy (first year umpire) comes out to me and tells me he had the runner missing the base. No kidding! So I explain to him how it works. He seems sceptical, so I tell him it's my call, I'm sticking with it and we'll discuss it after the game, Which we did...

This brings up a good point that I meant to mention earlier. The general interp is that the runner hasn't passed the base until he's entirely (trailing foot) past the base.

Only 30 years. That explains it. Either that or you missed seeing me miss first in a Legion game in 1961. (Made it back before the defense caught on too)

Interesting! So hypothetically the lead foot passes the bag, then the throw is caught, then the trail foot steps over the bag (missing it). The signal is Out?

Correct. The B/R has not yet acquired the base so the play at 1st is not an appeal.

I guess I work games where the base coaches are actually aware of what is happening. In all my years, I have never witnessed a player run by first base and the coach didn't yell for him to touch it. The closest I ever came was when the shortstop hung the firstbaseman out down the line. The two collided and the BR rolled past the base and into foul territory. sure enough, the first base coach was screaming for him to collect himself and hit the bag before the pitcher, who had by now recovered the ball, tagged him. He did and I was deprived of another example of our crazy game at work.

Clouds and 40 for the first game this Wednesday...up from the original 38 forecast. Break out the sunblock!

As others have answered, it's more like your second case. The reason stems from the BR's right to overrun 1B. The runner acquires the base legally by touching it, but he is treated as having acquired it when he passes the base (just as in other missed base appeals) until properly appealed by the defense.

But in the meantime, everyone on the field is expecting a ruling on whether the throw beat the runner. To stand there doing nothing (as we do for a play at the plate) gives the defense an unfair advantage, since the BR is 15 feet or more from the base he missed.

So we signal "safe" when the BR beats the throw to signal just that. If the defense says "But he missed the base!" and just stand there, then I tell them they can appeal that.

I've looked in the FED books and find nothing about this mechanic. It's a pro mechanic, and as far as I know it's the only one in wide use.

Darn -we need to train the coaches better. Why alert the defense to the miss?

In a game last year we had a BR miss 1b on a HR ball. I was PU and watching the ball down the LF line, clearly fair. Afterwards the defense appealed and BU called him out. I asked after game how bad he missed and he said 2 feet. 1b coach did not tell him to come back.

It was the home team's batter in the 5th inning and game end up going extra innings and home team lost in the 8th.

Sunny and 68 for me on Wednesday. I've already placed my bulk order of ice.

So if the BR passes 1B without touching, then the throw arrives to the base, then the BR returns to 1B, then the defense appeals he missed it the first time, the BR is safe?
It's such a complicated game...

JJ

PS Flurries and 39 here all weekend for my "home" opener....I got really spoiled doing my first 30 games in Florida...."Honey, where did I pack my long underwear last Fall?"...

JJ,
My first week was snowed out so I'm going to bed dreaming of a beach and a bottle of rum. Off to Spring Break in St. Thomas in the morning.

To my baseball brethren, I wish you well this week and hope you stay safe out there. Thanks for the great discussions this week - esepcially when we disagree. Those ones make me a better umpire and that's the goal.

Yes. He corrected the miss before the appeal.

Well, Rita?
 

Did you win the bet?

What is required if both the 1st baseman and the runner realize the base was missed, does it require a tag of the runner while off the base or the base while the runner is off the base?

I think FED specifically says that if the runner is trying to return, then the runner must be tagged. In this case, I'd apply that only if the runner is "actively" trying to get to the base. If he's just strolling back as after most overruns of first, I'd allow the base to be tagged.

If that's written I see what you are getting at. An unwritten speed-up rule.

Seems odd the FED would make such a distinction. If they do I wonder what is the purpose? I'm thinking get the out either way if the appeal was proper - bag or runner.

FED appeals are pretty lax...

8-2-5 Penalty (Art 1 - 5) "A live ball appeal may be made by a coach or any defensive player with the ball in his possession by tagging the runner or touching the base that was missed or left too early".

We can get it from a verbal appeal shouted from the dugout...we can get it if they tag the base.

Does that help muddy the winner of the bet?

Bob would that be the same in OBR?

Chris,

That's not what MY rule book says.

Where did you get yours? :rolleyes:

JM

From the IHSA. Pg. 46.

David,

I'm not Bob, but yes, it would.

While there is no FED language covering this situation at 1B, there is at Home plate. (8.2.2M(b) ) This establishes the principle that if the runner is "actively" returning to the base he missed, the runner (rather than the base) must be tagged in order for the umpire to sustain the appeal.

There is corresponding language in the text of the OBR rules establishing this principle at home (7.10 whichever of a, b, c, d addresses a runner missing home - don't recall off the top of my head), but, again, nothing specific to a BR overrunning and missing 1B.

The J/R is the only "authoritative" source of which I am aware that explicitly states that the principle would apply to a BR overrunning and missing 1B.

JM

Chris,

Are you sure?

In mine there is no sentence that starts with:

Not on page 46 or anywhere else in the whole freakin' book! (Nor the Case Book, for that matter).

I suspect that is because a Coach cannot make a live ball appeal (of a baserunning infraction, of course) under FED rules.

JM

Well look at Mr. Smarty pants! Of course it's not in your book. It's not in anybody's book but mine! And...mine is the better book. Seriously...because I read it with one eye up and one eye down, which makes it easier to read between the lines.

Yep - caught me again you bastige. A coach...coach. Right. a COACH is not said to have the privilage of making a LIVE ball appeal. And in the entire freakin book. I don't want to confuse anybody any further. So...JM...I got this...A COACH can make dead ball appeal. What I am referring to...is the coach.

Now if you'll excuse me, the doctor is about to begin stitching.

Chris,

1. I prefer "know it all" to "Mr. Smarty Pants". It's more dignified.

2. I can only hope you've learned your lesson. (Today's "utes", I'm tellin' ya'. What's becoming of the world today?) When I say "Are you sure?", I'm just being (characteristically, I might add..) courteous. What I really mean is, "That's a pretty stupid freakin' thing to say!"

3. I thank my lucky stars that you are not so dense and inattentive when we are on the field together.

4. I hope the surgery is successful, and, either way, it can't possibly hurt.

JM

Oh? Now you getting personal. You're only saying these things because you know I have deep respect for my elders...and the older they are, the more respect they get. Which lands you at the top of my respect list, right above to my sweet frail old grandmother who's about to turn 90.

I graciously accept your sincere and profoundly heartfelt apology.

And don't let it happen again, ya' young whippersnapper!

JM

Supposedly happened in MLB with Vaughn and Griffey circa 95. Vaughn chased Griffey and Griffey slid under his tag back into first. Can't find any verification on this, just word of mouth.

The coach can yell to his players telling them what to do during a live ball, but the players need to carry out the intentional and unmistakable proper appeal action.

Thanks JM. You are not Bob but just about the next best thing!

David,

While I certainly appreciate the compliment, I certainly wouldn't say that!

As a matter of fact, should you happen to come across a thread where Bob and I disagree on some aspect of rules or umpiring, I would encourage you to "go with what Bob said" - that's what I always do! ;)

JM

If he follows your advice, isn't he agreeing with you, too? :eek:

Oh yeah.

Rita