Who's Got First?
 

While doing a 18 year old game the following play occurred. I was in the B position. Ground ball to the right side pitcher tries to field it but misses. First baseman field the ball and the pitcher is covering first but approaching from a bad angle. The pitcher from my angle may or may not have tagged the edge of the base facing second ( at this point I would have been looking to my partner for help) the pitcher than clearly tags the base a "second time" this time the runner is clearly safe. The pitchers action (tagging the base a second time) told me that he initially missed the base on his first attempt I signalled safe.

The defensive coach doesn't complain but I hear him call out to the first baseman "Next time don't tag the base twice". I got that sinking feeling that something is wrong. I waited a couple of innings and I asked my partner if he got the base the first time and he said that he did.

Here's my question.

1. Hindsight being 20/20 should I have looked to my partner for help even though to everyone watching (myself included) this game that the pitcher tagging the base twice suggested that he missed the base the first time.

2. Should my partner have come to me to let me know that he tagged the base the first time?

Gordon

You can look, but don't expect an answer unless he's expecting you to look.

Absolutely not.

Had a similar play:

Bad throw to first. F3 tries to touch the bag, misses. Then tries a swipe tag, misses. "Safe"

DC wants me to get help, he did touch the bag.

"Then why did he try a swipe?"

"He wanted to be sure."

Uh-huh. Play on.

Coach knew why you called safe. Play on.

I agree. Coach knew why you called safe, that's why he didn't come out begging.

I'd be OK going to my partner for help, but don't expect him to come running in to step on your toes. Huddle up and see if he had a definitive look at it.

End of the day it's your call, but angles are sometimes going to get whacky in 2-man.

I am surprised the coach didn't request you get help from your partner.

I've had plays like this before. I've been on BU, we've pregamed it...I owned my call...some coaches around here think we have to get help on everything, knowing nothign about our mechanics...there's no way my partner would've seen it.

I had the best look I could get, my partner was watching something else...maybe a touch of 3B, or something else...I took the heat, was in the best position possible and stuck w/ my call w/o asking for help. Right or wrong we do the best we can when working two-man.

i would think that getting the call right would be the most important thing

It is but four posters before you sure don't think so. :eek:

Check your egos at the door and get the call right.:(

Right, but mechanically when I know that my partner wasn't even looking, I'm not going to ask him just to appease somebody who's never opened a mechanics manual.

Negative.

Getting the procedure right is the most important thing.

There's only two guys on the planet I work with that I'd go to first on a call like this. And that would only be in the 60' field, if I were in C, behind the shortstop. Only two guys that I'd trust had my back.

Now if a coach came out to ask me to get help(nicely, of course), and I had doubt (and a good partner), I'd entertain it. Other than that, he's still safe.

I like how those with an agenda always lean on the ego canard.

Truth is, umpires have specific responsibilities on plays. Since the base umpire is in B, that means that there are runners (I'm guessing) on first or first/third.

If there's R1/R3, the PU has to watch the touch of the plate. Period. Even if the umpire tried to sneak a peek, he's behind the plate and probably 95-100 feet away with a terrible look.

If there's R1, how is the crew handling R1 going to third? If it was agreed that the PU was covering third on this play, he's already heading up the line and the BU has to move to get in place to get this call. If the BU is covering third, then the PU might be able to get up the line to get a decent look.

But instead of wringing our hands and talking about "getting help," how about I ask the OP what he did to move into position to make this call. Did he move aggressively a few steps towards the 45 foot line between the plate and first in order to get the best possible angle on the play, keeping in mind there could be a subsequent play, depending on coverages?

I guarantee this: I will never ask a partner when I'm certain I have the best possible look at a play and I know my partner doesn't have a better look. And that means that me asking for help happens about every 10 years. I've worked with many base umpires who stand still, get straight-lined, and ask multiple times in a GAME. With umpires like this, we're dealing with a symptom here, not the disease.

:eek::eek:

the plate umpire saw that the base umpire missed the call, that is missed the first swipe that got the bag. he should have informed me and we should have gotten the call right.

(Many posts removed).

I'll give the new guy the benefit of the doubt, but actions like those deleted stop here.

All in all, this thread boils down to simple classification of umpires.

1) Scared to death to be seen as human (prone to error), wearing your ego emblazoned on your chest in luminance paint and considering yourself bigger than the game...or

2) Personally secure enough to be able to admit error, especially under difficult circumstances, do the right thing and get the call correct.

Considering #2, this correction can so easily be accomplished without anyone being "sacrificed" :eek:, Numero Uno is a sad joke on its beholder. :(

Hint: No one gives a damn about your ego...except yourself. ;)

It's definitely (imo) not PU's job to interject himself in this play.

If there was R1 only, PU would be heading to third (under new CCA mechanics, and those sometimes used in other levels). He'd likely not have a good view of the play.

If there was R3 as well, then PU is likely watching the tag at the plate.

If you asked him, he should give you what he had, but it's not likely to be much.

Getting the call right is important. Getting it right the right way is also important -- and not every call can be "got right", especially in 2-person.

Start the clock.

I want to see an honest reply to my post above and Bob's just two above this one. Don't get emotional, don't use the word ego -- just describe how the PU can *do his job* and still have a great look on a play at first he's not even responsible for.

I'm guessing I'll be waiting a long time for this, troll.

My take from the OP is that the coach is an experienced baseball guy in that he realized his player made a mistake in trying to touch the bag again. As such, he knew he was a loser in an argument. It is similar to the catcher not holding on to a marginal pitch. He is not getting the call. An experienced coach knows that and tells his catcher to hang on the ball. An inexperienced coach asks the catcher, "where was it?"

This is a game of subtleties and when you've been around it for a while you know what they are.

For all those who say the most important thing is getting the call right what makes you sure it will be right even after it is changed. If getting it right was the imperative we would confer after every call just to make sure the call was correct.

the goal should be to be consistent in all phases and expertly manage the game.

Do you?[quote] what makes you sure it will be right even after it is changed.[Right is when a clear an obvious error has been made as per my OPRidiculous and you should know it.The only goal that matters is "GET IT RIGHT.

Must be the three year reunion.

There's more to it than "getting it right" on every individual call. Sometimes you just have to umpire. I don't have a problem with Garth's philosophy, just as long as I don't have to work with a partner that shares it.

Garth, I'm confused why you come here asking the question in the OP, then 10 posts later you berate people for giving you an answer?

As described, I am not expecting my partner to have a good look at that play. He has other responsibilities. Even going to him opens a whole other can of worms. If he was on that play he just told me, and the opposing coach, that he was not watching the other runners and thus negating his area of responsibility. I have no problem getting the best look I can using two person mechanics, and then telling the coach that I will not go for help on that play. Just my two cents.

There really needs to be a discussion about getting this call right when there has been an obvious, correctable error as in the case of the OP? :confused:

Really? Think about that.

Leaving this call unadjusted is not only the height of being unethical it is flat out cheating. :eek:

Pathetic beyond expression. :(

I agree we should work to get all called right, but unless I am mistaken, all codes say that I cannot change another umpires call and if I did my actions could be subject to protest and I would lose. The NCAA did give us a list of when the non calling umpires should step in and help without invite, but the OP isn't one of them.

The game has found away to survive this long as is, and has a process for this. The manager/HC comes out and argues the call. When that happens we have a choice and some umpires have a mechanic for this. I have worked with guys that will start down or others that remove their hat if they have something for me.

To be honest if I were the calling umpire and knew I missed a crucial element of this play, I would stop the manager/HC on his way out before he got to me and I would get my crew together. After that there isn't much that anyone could argue. I didn't give the illusion that I let the coach talk me into it, he never got close enough to talk to me. As far as the being out of position argument, that is not a conversation that a coach and I are going to have, but he is correct, I am going to have to read better.

Have a great weekend all. I get to work with 5 great guys at as great ballpark in a great city this weekend. Hope you all have as much fun as I do this weekend.

the AA ougt to be ashamed then. in the op the PU isn't changing my call he is letting me do that by informing me I missed sonething that I couldn't see. It would be same like if there was a foot pull off the bag and Pu saw space and as BU I did not and called out.I don't understand so we are to let the game be played with wrong calls unless the manager sees that we are wrong? :confused: what?Thanks.

Berate the answers not the people.I never would have beleived that getting the call right would be an issue here. I assumed other.

Garth Vader, you're wasting your time, let it go. The majority has spoken and their position is crystal clear and quite telling. :(

2 posters now on the ignore list. Feel free to keep arguing with the "Three Faces of Troll," but please don't quote them so I don't have to read their idiocy.

Garth, I know I am a little late in this however, Bob is exactly right here, "Getting the call right is important. Getting it right the right way is also important -- and not every call can be "got right", especially in 2-person."

From your post, you had determined the runner was safe and declared it. If you had doubt, then ask your partner before you declare safe or out, or get in a better position to know for yourself. That is all everyone is saying here.

Your credibility is automatically on the line everytime you make a decision and then question it, by asking for help. The path you choose and the extent you go to, to "get the call rght" is entirely up to you. We are just passing on the experience that has worked best for us.

off point because I asked if my partner should have come out and told me i missed it. He should have. which is not the point- maybe I should have asked "How should my partner informed me I missed the call?" i thought it was a given to do the right thing and get the call right. Almost everyone agrees i am wrong. I'm stunned. Stunned to see the replies.my credibility and my integrity as an ump is ZEROif i choose to let calls made wrong stay wrong. if i am PU, i'm taliking to BU.

i would think that by asking for help i would be showing that I am all about getting it right. sheesh.

You can think that way if you want but just remember, every time you change your call the the previously happy coach will now be the unhappy one.

Officiate as you see fit and have a good season.

From NCAA Appendix E "Getting the Call Right"

No umpire shall criticize or interfere with another umpire's decision unless asked by the one making it.

The umpire making the call must be the one to seek asistance of a partner.

In the situations below, a partner who is 100 percetn certain he has addiitonal information should approach unsolicited and alert the other umpire to such information (7 items listed, none of which is "pulled foot or swipe tag at first")

Then you're not reading any rule books, ever. See Bob's reply regarding the NCAA. And look at 9.02(c) in OBR while you're researching stuff.

And if I'm the BU, you'll do that once. And we'll only work together that one game.

Okay, it's time you admit you're actually a coach, looking to stir things up.

I find it interesting, "Garth", that you signed your OP "Gordon."

How do you prefer to be addressed?

ok by me as this thread goes on there are fewer and fewer that I would take an assignment.

this is what i am referring to thanks for the update. just because there are only 7 the heart of the rule is clear. Bob, what are those seven?

You guys can update me, because my CCA is 2009 model and in it PU goes up the 1b line with R1 only and on batted ball toward F3, U1 has BR at 1st as well as R1 at 2b and 3b if he chooses to advance past 2b.

I generally, in pregame say I will take runner on 1st into 3rd only if a batted ball leaves the infield.

I would not interject on my partners's call, but if he asks me, that is why I came up the line in 1st place so I would tell him and he can decide what to do with that info

That's last year's mechanic. Now, PU has R1 (with R1 only) at third even if the batted ball doesn't leave the infield, unless there's a fair-foul issue in which case PU needs to stay near the line to rule on that so BU has the second play at thrid.

GarthV you can download a free copy of the NCAA rules:

NCAA Publications - 2011-2012 Baseball Rules (2 Year Publication)

There is this lead-in to Appendix E "Getting The Call Right" which says:

"The first requisite of an umpire is to ultimately get all decisions correct. Umpire pride is important, but never as important as getting the play right. It is the philosophy of the NCAA that umpires always seek to get the call
right. This may involve the reversal of a previously rendered decision. However, the correct decision—not the pride of any umpire—must prevail."

This is the ethics I teach, apparently you were taught, and on which any umpire should be taught.

To add emphasis, this creed of ethics is repeated in Section D;

"...contrary to past practice, umpires are not to “die with a call” in cases in which a) the calling umpire is not 100 percent certain he is right; and b) another umpire has additional information that could lead to a proper ruling. Both NCAA philosophy and umpire integrity – consistent with NCAA rules – dictate that calls are reversed in this situation."

The last paragraph of Appendix E states :

"Overall, umpires are urged to seek help on reversible plays in which they may have erred by not seeing a crucial element of a play."

These quotes above leave absolutely no interpretation by any official that places the game in front of his pride and ego except to "Get The Cal Right" regardless.

1. Yes, for three good reasons.
A. You stated; "The pitcher from my angle may or may not have
tagged the edge of the base facing second ( at this point I would
have been looking to my partner for help)". So what changed your
mind? You didn't know. The follow on action should never have a
bearing on what you saw or didn't see. Would every trapped ball you
call be changed to a catch because the fielder holds it up and shows
it too you, course not. A batter doesn't swing, does his
action "suggest" it wasn't a strike?
B. Your partner told you, you missed it. Hindsight say's you should
asked.
C. It woulda looked sharp as heck, and you've nothing to lose, worst you
get is the same call, the best you get is an out. And you'll sleep much
better knowing you did everything in your power to GET IT RIGHT.

2. No. Your partner doesn't know why you called em safe, maybe you had a
bobble, maybe you thought the runner won the race? You later post
your partner should have interjected, again, what if you just flat missed
a call, you would expect your partner to stop all action and tell you what
he had? On what, every play? Only 95% of em, 50%, where do you draw
the line? How about a low strike, should the BU interject. Why not
just go with 3 umpire's per base, majority rules?

I like your get it right desire, but "you" gotta get em right not the consensus. How could you adjust your coverage on this play to see the whole picture, did ya relax thinking it was gonna be a gimme? Were you hedging towards 2B to much in anticipation of a play there?

Good luck and "get em right"..

Garth, I appreciate your position, but there are problems
 

Garth,

No offense intended if you work lots of baseball, but you need to understand something.

In higher levels of Baseball there is a concept called "own your own call", or "take care of your business". Players and coaches expect the umpire to make get the call right, and lots of people know who should be calling what.

In your case, you are saying you're not sure he got the bag. You did the right thing, you called him safe. F3 gave the play away and the manager was telling him that. I recently was in a ball park for a college game, with a 2 out play at the plate. Ball beats the runner to the plate, F2 made a terrible tag, but in the PU's view tagged him, and the PU rang up the runner. Right call was made.

After the play F2 went and tagged the runner again, after the runner touched the plate, and after PU made his call. HC and F2 had a long talk in between innings since he threw the PU under the bus for the second tag, when the umpire clearly called him out, and he was out.

In your case, your job is to make the call at 1B. You need to own this call. If you go to your partner, or if your partner comes out and overrules you (which is exactly how it will be interpreted by everyone in the park) then on every close play for the rest of the game you are going to get nothing but hassled, and if there is an argument, you will be asked to "appeal it to your partner, he had a better angle than you, etc". On every close play for the rest of that game you have made the PU your assistant base umpire.

Further, when you called safe did you use the basic signal mechanic saying, "He's safe, he's off the bag", and moving both your arms to one side in a waving motion, or did you just signal safe, as in he beat the ball to the base?
Using the mechanic to say that he missed the bag in your judgment explains to both dugouts what you saw, and you would not have heard a word from the defensive team's HC on the play. It sounds to me like like you had a big hesitation before you called safe in the first place, also leading me to think that F3 thought you made no call, so he was trying buy an out call from you.

Now, everyone of us on the board who has participated in this discussion has a desire to get every call right, nobody wants to miss any call ever, especially a call like this at 1B. If the PU is doing his job he has other things to worry about than checking for a foot touching the bag on this play. A good PU would have said to you, "in my judgment he did," (or words to that effect) as opposed to what he told you, because if he's doing his job, he won't have a perfect angle to see the play either. If he does have such an angle he's not doing his job.

What we are trying to tell you is:

1. That the call is yours to make.
2. You made it. That's what should happen on the play.
3. Trying to "get the call right" as you describe it with conferences and asking for help causes many more problems than it solves. and in this case all you have is the PU's guess substituting for your guess, not a good thing to have happen.
4. If you missed it, then find out why you missed it after the game and don't do it again.

And for my .02:

5. Never let a team's HC get into your head like this one did. If you are asking about a call 2 or 3 innings later either you know you missed it, or the HC who said that has gotten you thinking about you missing a call, almost guaranteeing that your mind is on the previous call, instead of getting the next call right, almost a guarantee you will miss another close call in the game.

In your judgment you got the call right. good call. If after the game you think you missed it, forget about it. the losing team did not lose the game because you might have missed the call.

I haven't chimed in on this conversation until now, but I've taken a great interest in it as I had a similar play two seasons ago and got into a real mess with it. Similar situation, defensive coach comes out and asks if the first baseman missed the bag or not. I was in B and didn't get the look at first that I should have so I had no problem checking with my partner. I asked my partner "Did the first baseman hit the base" and my partner says that he did so I rang up the out. Now the offensive coach comes to me and I explain that I didn't see the foot hit the base so I checked with my partner and he told me that the first baseman did hit the base and therefore we had an out. The coach objects stating that he my have hit the base on the second swipe, but in no way did he hit it on the first. I confirmed again with my partner, and he told me that he did get the base on the second swipe and not the first. Now I had to come back with another reversal and again ruled the runner safe. I now managed to piss off both coaches with one call (which is a rare accomplishment) and look like a complete idiot on the play.

I learned a valuable lesson on this occasion in that I'm now asking a partner only "what did you see" and not a specific question if I confer with them and also that going to your partner sometimes creates more problems than it solves. I like the earlier point about owning your own calls, and I think I'm going to look moreso at using that philosophy in the future.

Old
 

I'm getting tired of bein lectured by umpires who are trying to sell there laxness to being ethical and honest and hove a 1000 excuses why they should sellout and not GET THE CALL RIGHT. I have looked in every manual form HS to NCAA and others and the instruction is ok the same. Forget about anything else and get the call right.

Forget about anything else and get the call right. so what it gets down to is that you are above the game and anything that will make your life easy is what you are going to do. Fine. go ahead, shame on you, don't expect me to bow to your low standards though.:(

The sit is similar to me but not to the rest of the forum. Their arguments would be since the DC has asked about the call then a) Screw him it's not his place or b) Time to conference. There may be c, d, e and f but to me it makes no difference. Get the call right.Sorry for that but so what? Did your life immeasurably change? Did you grow donkey ears and bray at the moon? Did your wife refuse sex for the remainder of your life? :D Nothing of any consequence happened. Nothing at all. MOF, after giving the coaches their say, you are in a perfect position to toss.

"Coach, you came out and wanted me to get the call right. We did exactly what you wanted. That will be all." ;) <eom>

In a conference, you and your partner can go over the entirety of the call, taking your time to discuss all the particulars. Including, in this case, if or if not the swipe made contact and when the swipe made contact which will lead you to gettting the call right.No, it creates a different problem one you are ethically bound to solve. Get the call right. That's what you're paid to do, isn't it or do they pay you to call them anyway that suits your fancy?I don't know what that means but it sounds like a cop-out at first read. :rolleyes:

lol Also known as "take the easy way out". Halt! The truly knowlegeable will interpret this as a solid team of officials getting the call right. Oh, BS. "Every"? :p "Appeal to partner" ? Game control, learn it. Life is tough, we're growing organs daily, get in line for a pair. "Take the easy way out" is for wimps.I'd like to have 8 dark hours with Miss America, so what about "desires". Wishing is for children, doing the job right is proof of adulthood. Excuse moi, but wtf is PU doing on this play if he isn't following the ball and B-R up the line? BU is in B, No R2/R3 is indicated.A bunch more baloney. :rolleyes:

And with the attitude you're spewing out, there would be fewer and fewer games on your schedule as time goes by, so don't worry - you can remain a coach, now. Or a keyboard umpire. Or a fanboy.

Simply Lame-- Simply
 

Are you just trying to be offensive for the fun of it?

A: The "easy way out" is to run to your partner every time someone comes out of the dugout and complains about a call, or wear a set of rabbit ears hearing every comment from the dugout, and responding to it. The easy way out is to have so little respect for the game and the players in it you don't do your job and own up to your call.

B. If your umpires are working as a team on this play, then the PU is not in a great position to see this play, as he is looking for the legal slide at 2B, and then aware he might have a call at 3B using some mechanics. He sure as shooting is not going to come out an overrule a judgment call by his partner at 1B. Or do you make it a habit of throwing in your own opinion on every close call your partner makes?

C. Nice way to reveal you have one year of experience 20 times Simply. If you want to show you have guts (or whatever rude term you wish to use in print), then tell the person who started this thread to make the right call the first time, and not have to go to his partner to get his judgment. Do this stuff in an NCAA game and see how much trash you have to deal with coming from the dugout the rest of the day.

D. I have no idea what your ranting about with "8 hours with Miss America'. I guess you really don't give a hoot about getting calls right in a game, like most of us here do. Maybe I'll move to where you umpire, since getting calls right and game management doesn't seem to matter much to people where you work. Nonsensical responses don't make you look very good either.

E. The original poster told us he was in B, so he either has R1, or R1/R3. I assume it's R1, and if it is, the PU had better not be going up the line following the BR. Maybe if you read the post before attacking someone you might understand what they are saying. "Great" mechanics on your part if you are going up the line with your partner in B. Good luck this season, you and your partners will need it.

F. Thank you for your opinion Simply, I'd really enjoy working a game with you sometime, so we can find out who is full of lunch meat and who is filled with hot air being let out in a post.

So go and get the call right, for God's sake, and stop blubbering! While your at it, try buying a book on positioning and get into the right place to make the call. From the B, you should be able to move into position and adjust as needed and don't even think of arguing that you were in the right place. 30 years of umpiring and 10 years of evaluating for my association tells me that you were not in the right place.

So, Garth, the next time you're in B position and see a nice pitch down the middle that the plate umpire calls a ball, you're going to call time and inform everyone that we have a strike instead?

I think sufficianet viewpoints have been raised on each side of the issue. Go for help, provide help, or don't, depending on your views, the situation, the standards in your area, your partner, ...