Interesting Question
 

This was recently brought to my attention, I am interested in some opinions:

R2, outs and count does not matter.

R2 tries to steal 3B. R2 overslides 3B. BU calls R2 safe. Manager has discussion with BU, who then comes to check with PU in a conference. PU says he did not get a good look at the call. You as PU say:

A. PU says "I go with your call."

B. PU says either: "IMO he's out", or "IMO he's safe". BU then accepts PU's judgment and makes that his call.

C. PU tells BU to "Make a call and stick with it, if you are wanting to change you call do it."

Questions:

1. How do you deal with BU in this case?

2. How do you deal with either manager when they come to you as the PU for an explanation?

3. What influences you to make this call on the level of ball you most commonly work?

Thank you for your consideration and opinions.

jkumpire,

Not sure where you're going with this, but I'll try to answer your questions:

1. If my partner comes to me for help on his call, I'm going to tell him what I saw.

2. If a manager subsequently comes to me, I'm going to direct him to my partner.

3. Not sure what you're asking here.

JM

Jm
 

I just wondering if umpires who work different levels would see this differently (i.e. HS as opposed to NCAA, or Younger players, or pure OBR).

Hope this helps!

This is what a good pregame is about. Come to me and I'll tell you what I saw...or in this case, didn't see. You indicate that I was screened so that leaves the original call standing. No, I won't encourage him to change it and then hang me with the job of selling it. If you don't see an out happen, the runner gets the benefit of the doubt. Calling what you can't see leads to long days. Confer. When I work with guys for a while, we break conferences by all shaking our heads in agreement and return to position. Whoever is the original calling umpire will make the signal for the play and may explain that after conferring, his look at it was best. The coach can respond as he sees fit. We get play resumed as quickly as possible.

Give 'em what you've got. Be honest and sell it. The PU is not always the crew chief in higher levels of ball. If the coach wants an explanation and I am the CC I will try to oblige. If I am not, I will walk away and let the CC handle it.

Good luck.

Absolutely since these various groups of umpires <never> <rarely> <occasionally> <frequently> work together never, occasionally, sometimes, or frequently. Communication is all about compatibility and comfortableness.</frequently></occasionally></rarely></never>

..."I can't help" and that is that.

In a high school game, I've only had a conference once, and it was my fault that we had it. As BU, I called a play at 1B safe too quickly, missing the swipe tag that happened. I saw the tag as I began my safe call -- whoops. The DC jumped out of the dugout. I immediately called my partner in, told him that I saw the swipe tag. He agreed there was a tag; I changed the call.

In the youth league, though, I deal with a lot of newer, inexperienced umpires. Several times I've had meetings for calls they made. In these, I always ask them what they saw. If their call was incorrect due to misapplication of the rules or something they personally saw ("He tagged him, then dropped the ball"), I'll explain to them the rule and see if they realize the mistake. If they don't, or the mistake was an error in judgment (they didn't see the ball dropped), I'll let them know what I saw.

In all cases, we agree on a call before breaking and the original umpire makes the new call.

I'm going to be very honest with him. But IMO, it's still the BU decision as to the call. If he's asking me if i saw something he didn't, I will tell him, but let him make the decision.

As far as the coaches, once a decision is made, we are on the same page, no matter what.

It doesn't change with me no matter what level of ball.

Thanks
David

I always ask my partner what he needs from me and then I provide it for him. If he wants what I have I give it to him, if he needs to change a call I bite the bullet for him, if he is coming to me to appease the coach I help him with that. We may talk in the post game, but on the field I provide as much support as possible. I may need it one day!

My apologies for being blunt, but given this play you read your partner and call the runner out in order to help his doubt? Given your past posts here I doubt that you are advocating such an irresponsible mechanic. We provide what we saw and use our post game to discuss ways to improve his calls.

This reminds me of umpires who give proximity outs on forces rather than making the actual call. A long time ago, this may have been accepted practice but has since changed in an effort to get all of our calls correct. Video replay did away with a lot of that misplaced arrogance. Call what you see. If you don't see an out, he is safe.

Have a great season. We still have snow in the forecast.

I don't think that's what he was saying but, I could be wrong. What I read is he's going to be honest with his partner.

BU - I've got him safe, did he make it back to bag on other side?

PU - tells what he saw, gives BU information he needs.

Could be, "he got back fine from what i saw" or could be "no he was six inches off the bag" or it could be, "man I couldn't tell".

Then BU makes a final decision etc.,

At least that's what I read into his comments.

Oh edited to add, and if the coach wants to complain to me, I've going to tell him to hire three umpires and then we won't be having this discussion ...

Thanks
David

Good morning David, I was responding to Durham.

Maybe I am reading this wrong - the internet limits clarity. I read, "...if he needs to change a call I bite the bullet for him,..." as a partner allowing another umpire to thrust the burden of making the call on myself. I also see it as changing a call and pretending that you got advice from your partner when that is not true. If the umpire made a hasty call, has doubt but I didn't see the play, I will not change the call for him and won't allow him to do it. That is not what conferring is supposed to be about. Ask me what I have and if I cannot offer a better look, the original call stands.

If Durham means something different, my apologies. I have written things that others misconstrue and have had to clarify later. His other posts seems to indicate that he knows what he is doing out there, so I suspect this is just one of those things.

Enjoy your season!

I took it to mean that if my partner changes his call after getting information from me, I will confirm to the coach what I saw (if necessary). It's not really biting the bullet for him, it's just backing him up.

Agreed. Considering that the OP had the PU screened or ignorant of the play, changing the play could only be as a result of the calling umpire pretending that he was given new information. The PU will then take the grief. I have trouble with that mechanic.

I don't think I ever said that I change the call, it was his and I let him do his thing, but I have worked with guys that have had a crew get together and then say, "Man, I kicked it!" or "Man, I think I missed that!" and follow that up with I am gonna change it. I tell em, "Do what you gotta do bro!"

Then we get ready for the fireworks.

If a partner needs to use me so that he can pretend to get new info, then I support him is all I was saying. After the game we will talk about ways to get into better postion, or to improve timing, like better use of eyes, but I will not critize him for doing what he did. That is what I am there for. I am the only guy, or one of 2 or 3 on the field with him that he has. And on the field I have his back.

Sorry if any of you don't support that, but you won't regret having me on the field when the turds hit the fan.

Again, notice all I did was support my partner, not change his call or tell him what to do.

I however will insist that if he is going to change his call, that we go over to the coach that the call will go against and explain it before we give any signal. He will do the talking and i will just be there or the other partner will just be there. Don't give a bull a red flag and then let him have room to run at you!

Thanks for the compliment and I am being sincere.

The forecast in San Fran looks great for the weekend and I have my plate coat and new majestic jacket ready if needed.

I'm with you... maybe if I read more, I'll figure out the point of the question....:D

:eek: I hear this comeback all the time and all I find is it is a good way to insure an argument. IMO, the last thing you want to do is to have the coach hear his parents aren't paying enough money...or have the parents hear the same...or put yourself in a position where you get "three blind ones won't be any better".

The last time a partner of mine created his own hell with this statement, I hung him out. After he finally gained distance from the coach, he wondered why I didn't intervene. :eek:

"I figured when you asked for a fight you wanted one." :rolleyes:

I agree that, like so many quips to coaches in all sports, they are better thought than said on the field / court.

Dg
 

If BU comes to me with a Q I would ask him to explain exactly what he saw and why he called him safe. I would then ask him if has any doubt about the call. If noon, then I suggest the call stand, regardless of what I saw, and I'm not likely to tell him. If he says yes, he has doubt and wants to know what I saw, I will tell him. If I saw a safe then case closed. If I saw an out then I suggest to him that he can change it if he wants to but I would suggest he not do that, let it stand, because I could be wrong and his doubt misgiven,after all, he has much better position on the play. Best to let everyone see we discussed and that is all the defensive coach can hope for.

Let me try again
 

The point of question #3 is simply this: On different levels of Baseball there are different ways of handling this situation. NCAA has a list of times when partners should meet, for one example.

I wanted to find out how the many posters and lurkers on this board would handle this situation with their BU partner when confronted with the same situation.

I am still looking for a few more opinions on this situation, so any help you can offer or opinions you can give I would appreciate reading.

I was taught that when conferring, the calling umpire asks, "What did you see on that play?" It is specific and allows a partner to provide information that affirms or changes the call. For HS ball, I wait until asked. The new NCAA guidelines will help me this season. Before I left for Asia, I would have used a very similar mechanic to Fed in NCAA games. Wait and reply.

there is another thread on this running now, i'll save you the review. the mechaninc, the ump's pride, the whatever NEVER exceeds Getting The Call Right.

Gordon/Garth (whichever), which pro school did you attend that taught this?

Unfortunately until you get to work at higher levels consistently with pretty much the same partners, this is going to change, sometimes game to game. I worked two season's with one partner 75% of the time and we read each other like a book. There have been other times you just wonder if it would have been better to do the game yourself. For the most part though, pre-game this and just give your partner info for him to make a decision. It's his call but, make sure to back him up on the field.

I would say that at the Varsity level and below, I have found over the years, that approx. 50% of the time or more, your going to work with someone who really doesn't study mechanics, knows some of the rules and feels as though they have to obligh the coaches, or are just inexperienced and lack confidence. Regardless though, you still have to get through the game.

Good luck.

For high school games, I work with the same partner 80-90% of the time. For college games, I have many different partners. If it were up to me, I would get rid of the partner system. It fosters non-uniform mechanics. This can cause big problems when you work with a new partner which, in high school baseball, is likely to be in the playoffs. Not a good time for partners to be on different pages.

How do you define "the partner system" and what do you propose in its place?

Our state baseball UIC is also pretty tight with the NFHS. Word on the street is that he wants us all to work one set of mechanics for all OHSAA games this year; regular season opener through state tourney final. The mechanics he wants us to use are straight out of the NFHS Umpire Manual. Ugh!

This old dog has some new tricks to learn.

Bad choice of words on my part. I meant working with the same partner all season often leads to the use of non-standard mechanics. Assigning different partners forces everyone to be on the same page rather than a separate page for each team.

Standard mechanics for everyone is the answer, I agree. Getting some of these guys to study mechanics, let alone read the rules, is another issue that should be reinforced at the association level. Having agreed to standard,s from one area to the next is another.

This problem is not unique to Baseball only though. When I officiated ice hockey it was the same thing. You would go from one area to another and "standard mechanics" became a local interpretation sometimes. A perfect example is some areas strictly use NFHS mechanics and some use CCA mechanics. Almost similar but not really, not completely.

IMHO and IME, I disagree.

Since most associations do a terrible job of teaching mechanics, if at all, much less agree on a set of mechanics, or requiring as a function of employment them to be understood and deployed (elaborate pre-season testing, review and supervision), assigning different partners is guaranteeing poor mechanical officiating. :(

If you have an association with a set of quality leaders, they can match up partners according to strengths and weaknesses, temperament, physical capabilities, etc. All derived from the testing, reviews and supervision.

But that isn't what happens all too often. The Big Dogs in the association want to work with each other after pancakes 'n beer. This dooms proper matchings; they have no interest in being astute leaders, only their self-interests. Which games with which other Big Dogs and the paychecks that come their way.

And IHOP pancakes and cheap beers of course. :rolleyes:

Sure, if every official was available any time you needed them and were willing to drive as far as needed. In actuality, it's impossible to make these pairings, especially with 100+ officials and thousands of games, so organizations are forced to pair partners by availability. This doesn't mean organizations can't pair officials with different abilities, but there's no way you can match them perfectly.

The only exceptions are when officials are being evaluated for promotion to higher-level games. Pair them with more experienced and stronger officials to evaluate them.

Do those shoes fit?

Originally Posted by Simply The Best http://forum.officiating.com/images/...s/viewpost.gif


If you have an association with a set of quality leaders, they can match up partners according to strengths and weaknesses, temperament, physical capabilities, etc. All derived from the testing, reviews and supervision.


Wasn't shooting for perfection. Availability is one of the criteria that you snipped from my post (i.e. "etc)Fair enough.

I think I understand your intent, but don't think this is the way to go.
As BU, if I come to you for info (besides coach appeasement), I dont want be asked multiple Q's on why I called that, what my "doubt" level on the call is, or what you think I should do. All I want to know is "What do you have". Tell me, and I'll handle it from there.
Your post would make more sense if the BU was a newbie, though...

It may seem like I'm picking on you, but I really just want a clearer response.
Are you saying that, as PU, you can actually "insist" on BU's actions and that "we signal" ? Sounds like you're over-reaching there.

But I am curious on the "both going to explain the changed call" idea and wonder what all of you think of this. The coach knows that the PU saw something different and will address comments to the PU (so the BU "does the talking and I will just be there" idea wont work).
Any time I've given info, the BU then makes his call while I'm nearby or walking back to my position, and if a coach asks me (due to a call change), I say "I told my partner what I saw, and its his call, lets play ball"...
What say all of you?

I don't feel picked on at all. I will agree that to some that my approach may be over reaching, but I have yet to run into that problem on the field. We pregame it and work together a lot.

In 2001 I was working U1 at a game in Lakewood, NJ. My partner missed a HR ball due to a bad angle and a funky ground rule. After we got together, I informed him of where the ball hit and explained how it came back onto the field. As soon as I told him, he turned around and changed the call. The Lakewood manager shot out of the dugout like a cannon ball. He bumped my partner really hard and it was one of the most intense situations I have ever seen on the field.

We were being evaluated that night. After the game, Denny Cregg said, "Well boys! Do you think that there is anything you could have done different to prevent that?"

He later shared that if, you walk towards that manager/HC he knows what is coming and he has time to think about it. He still isn't happy about it, but by closing the distance between you and him and giving him time to chew on it, it helps defuse the situation a little.

This mechanic has helped me ever since.

By both umpires going over the manager/coach hears it from the calling umpire and the other umpire can quickly support the change and get the game going again. This allows you to avoid the, I am going to go talk to him and the yelling across the field that can take place if the non-calling umpire doesn't go with.

This isn't the only way, and you are welcome to never use it, but it has worked very well for me.

I see a bunch of responses below, but I'm responding before reading them. All three, A, B, and C seem inappropriately abrupt. I, as PU, have already said all I have to offer. Partner, I have nothing to add, or Partner, I didn't see anything that would change this call. A) PU doesn't "go with BU's call" ... it's BU's call to make, PU is not "over" him. B) PU has no "opinion". BU should be asking a specific question here... did the runner overslide where I was blocked, etc. PU's opinion on safe/out should never be uttered. C) more correct but rudely stated for no apparent reason.

Regarding the questions at the bottom, 1) Why does BU need to be dealt with, I'm missing something. 2) Nothing - direct manager to the umpire who made the call. 3) Huh?

That is awful.

Don't hold back. :)

Care to share your full thoughts?

I was taught to NEVER approach a coach to inform him of your call before you make it. The reason for this is simple, it will either welcome intimate confrontation or appear like you are discussing something with him without having the other coach/manager present. Signal the call after you and your partner confer. Hopefully, you held your conference away from players and coaches. By signalling your call, you have stated your decision for all to see. If the coach charges out, handle it.

In the Lakewood play, without knowing his demeanor, I suggest that the coach would have been just as upset if you broke your huddle and then approached him to change the play. Being near him doesn't negate his response to a perceived slight. Maybe you could have convinced him to not be upset, but professional umpires are taught to respect distance and be assertive when getting a call right.

Make your call, let him charge out, listen to his questions and respond when appropriate. This is routine situation handling. Approaching a coach, often in front of his dugout only brings you closer to the lion's den. It works for me and has for almost thirty years.

Sunshine and 50's tomorrow. My season doesn't start soon enough. Enjoy yours.

Exactly. I maybe assumed a newbie has asked the Q because an experienced ump would not, in fact most likely got it right already. If I am working with an experienceed ump and he asks I tell him what I got, and he will decide what to do with that info.

I was taught that too, but I am always learning and trying new things. This one works for me and is just food for thought. So many ways to approach situations. Find ones that work for you.

Season is going well. Had a blast at AT&T Park this past weekend. Got to work with and watch 5 of the best umpires in college baseball. Was very blessed to be apart of it. Get to work with two of them again this weekend. Life is very good at the moment. New baby girl and I get to umpire.

I would insist that you have to be kidding me.:eek:

You've done your job. If he's ethical, and you have a call changer, he changes the call. If not, then he truly does have to make a decision. :rolleyes: