Intentional walk / hit batsman
 

Hypothetical (probably silly) situation (11-12 yr old OBR): 1 out, very fast runner on 2nd. Team decides to intentionally walk right handed batter. Trying to prevent r2 from stealing 3rd, after conferring with F2, pitcher pitches ball behind the batter in an attempt to create a much shorter throw to 3rd. F2 stays completely in the catchers box until ball release meeting the requirements of 8.05(L) and 4.03(A). The batter instinctly steps away from the plate upon seeing the pitch coming his direction, r2 breaks toward 3rd, , and the batter is hit by the pitch outside the batters box.
What do you call? I'm thinking: Dead ball, Batter out per 6.06 (C), Runner returns to 2nd.
Are there any circumstances where the runner could also be called out?
Is there any rule prohibiting the pitcher from throwing behind the batter as long as he clearly has no intent of hitting the batter?

Do you have 11-12 year olds with that kind of control and commitment to the coach's direction near you?

Are you content with penalizing the batter for trying to evade being hit by a pitch that is not in the strike zone?

Did the batter interfere with the catcher’s fielding or throwing by stepping out of the batter’s box or making any other movement that hinders the catcher’s play at home base (6.06C)? No exceptions are given.

HBP.

Oh -- and eject the pitcher for throwing at the batter. ;)

Few do but I have seen this taught by a number of coaches. Usually the same ones who adhere to the "crowd the plate" batting philosophy.

They are looking for one or all of several things.

1) Something to get in the face of the PU about. Intimidation, then belittling, since the OBR is gray on this, it makes for a great way to begin an episode with a PU.

2) An easy out.

3) Advantage on the throw but this one can be a double edged sword. As you are alluding, the pitch has to be fairly accurate to be cleanly caught and to have the throw shortened (F2-->F3). F2s momentum can either be disrupted or enhanced depending on F2s footwork and the location of the pitch, vertically and horizontally.

4) Surprise.

5) Look cool. :D

The reason I never taught it was that I was concerned with the B's health. B's moving around especially out of the box in such an unusual pitch location, no telling how that is going to turn out when he's HB this P. Typically, B is going to be much more defenseless imo than a typical HBP in box.

Unless F1 throws a breaking ball then all bets are off. :D

Thet's flat out considered throwing at the batter in any shaving-level game. You'd have a bench-clearing brawl on your hands if it happened.

:confused:

With an R2? With F2 moving to catch the ball? So you have a F1 and/or F2 and/or HC ejection? R2 advances? R2 stays? HBP? Live or dead ball?

:confused:

Pick one:

You're naive.
You're new at this
You're just being obnoxious.

Let's carve your post down to the important factors.There is nothing that specifically covers this event in OBR including 6.06. So whaccha gonna do? Use J/R? RIM comments? Evans? Intuition? Crystal ball gazing? :D Other professional interpretations? Case book?

Here's what I have gone with consistently.

Dead ball. Given.

Batter. Out. Why? It is my interpretation of OBR, and the interpretation of professionals, that B cannot make any movement which impedes F2. This is an extension of the underlying philosophy of 6.06(c).

Runner returns to 2B Why? TOP, dead ball.

By and by, the argument that follows by the coach who is setting you up for this call (see my other post http://forum.officiating.com/737825-post5.html - Point #1) is the "show me the rule". Which the appropriate response is "there isn't one, we are going with my interp". Which usually brings out the P word "protest" which I conclude the discussion by putting my helmet on and doing my best Pet Detective impression "Allllllrighty then" and returning to the plate. :p

As you have explained it, and my interpretation of how you have explained the event, no.No. He can throw it anywhere on God's Good Earth or Sky as he desires. ;)

The consequences, ah the consequences though. :D

No because technically F2 is not fielding... this either... the "play at home base" is widely interpreted to mean on an advancing runner if there is no bat-ball contact.

Considering the OP was speaking about 11-12 yoa...:eek:

But let's go with your comment anyway. ;) What action or actions would you now take on these shavers? Cite rules please.

The rule does not apply to a pitched ball, for which batter interference is not defined. The pitched ball is, after all, for the batter to hit.

Or: the catcher is not fielding when he catches a pitch, so again this rule does not apply.

Your situation is a HBP, as Bob notes. If the coach complains, tell him to pitch a walk outside where he's much less likely to hit the batter.

Uhmmm, you might want to check the OP again. The batter moved out of the way of the pitch that was coming at him. Unfortunately, the pitch continued in the batter's direction.

Rules are cut and dry, with that I will agree. Application of a rule requires experience, intelligence and knowledge of the basics of the game being officiated. Blind rule applications do not work - that is why computers will never replace officials.

:D

rbmartin is the OP, ozzy :eek:

rbmartin,

You call, "TIME! You (BR), 1st base. You (R2), back to second."

Not in this sitch.

JM

I hope the original poster understands by now, given what he wrote, the batter did nothing wrong. As stated, he instinctly (sic) moved out of the box when he saw the ball coming his way. While the pitcher and catcher may have intended to throw behind him, that does not protect them from the batter getting hit by a pitch. The ball is dead, BR goes to first and R2 returns. These are 11-12 year olds who need to learn the rules so that they don't act this silly when they are older. Hopefully the coach who ordered this play will wise up too.

I read about a coach who never intentionally walked batters. He taught his pitchers to just run one in on them and let them take the base rubbing a painful spot on their bodies. Clever. Not cool, but still clever.

Have a good season.

It's clever to teach kids that intentionally pitching at the batter is acceptable at any sub-pro level? In direct violation of NFHS 6-2-3?

Do you know what the word 'clever' means?

I can think of a few other words that i would use other than "clever" for this type of coaching. :rolleyes:

Thanks
David

Why is it that so many of you are antagonistic here? The coach I read about was a MiLB guy who now is an assistant in the bigs. Purpose pitches occur in pro ball. They also happen in small ball and we are supposed to be able to recognize them. I have that ability.

You can find numerous videos of intentional walks that failed, some are hysterical. This coach had his guys run one in on a guy. Immediate dead ball, no wasted pitches or risk of an errant pitch. Yes, it is rough ball but MiLB players should be used to it. It is a clever tactic for that level of baseball.

Please don't try to correct my grammar. I will show you the same respect.

Your post didn't mention that you were talking about pro ball.

"Recognize" purpose pitches? What does that mean? By rule you must eject the pitcher (and maybe the coach) in HS varsity and below.

It's still not clever. And I'll post as I please.

Instead of accepting the fact that you assumed something which wasn't evident, you continue to act arrogant. You made a mistake and I encouraged you to let respect be the tone between us.

I enjoy seeing umpires discuss rules, mechanics, war stories and partaking in them. There is no benefit to engaging you in nonsense. I'm sure you are a decent umpire and a swell guy. I wish you the best this season.

For what it's worth, considering the context of the thread (11-12 year olds) and the fact you called him a coach, I did not think you were referring to an MiLB manager either.

Watching from the sidelines, yes, someone is acting arrogant, but it's not mbyron. Also note that condescension is NOT respect.:rolleyes:

You wonder why people are antagonistic around here. I would suggest that the better question is why they are specifically antagonistic towards you, and with that in mind, go back and re-read your posts.

Thank you.

Me too, but I *also* read "clever" in the spirit of "a coach who *thought* he was being clever" and not as any endorsement of the tactic.

1) A pitching coach is a coach; a manager is not. It seems that some on this board continue to assume in efforts to defend another's error. I wrote what happened, not what some of you want to have occured. I never stated that this was about 11-12 year olds.

2) The play was offered as a continuation of what some coaches will do. That is what this thread involved, right?

3) I have received a few PMs telling me not engage Michael in this nonsense. I attempted to establish mutual respect. I offered an affirmation by stating that I am sure he is a decent umpire and a swell guy, even after being told that he would do as he pleases. I want to discuss baseball and leave internet bashing to those inclined to such behavior. If some of you construe that to be condescending you are wrong.

4) I related the story and didn't feel the need to elaborate about every possible detail. It came from a fellow umpire who wrote up his game incident report and shared it with me. He ejected the pitcher, coach and manager from that game. He agreed with me that while devious, pro ball has numerous examples of such clever behavior. It should be noted that in addition to clever, I also wrote that it was not cool. I hardly suggested it was a good thing.

clever - [klev-er]
–adjective, -er, -est.
1. mentally bright; having sharp or quick intelligence; able.
2. superficially skillful, witty, or original in character or construction; facile: It was an amusing, clever play, but of no lasting value.
3. showing inventiveness or originality; ingenious: His clever device was the first to solve the problem.
4. adroit with the hands or body; dexterous or nimble.
5. Older Use .
a. suitable; convenient; satisfactory.
b. good-natured.
c. handsome.
d. in good health.


5) #3 should suffice as to an explanation of the word as it was originally used in my post.

I believe that it is best to just move on. I am sorry for having mentioned a play without considering that it could be misconstrued. My intent was to discuss baseball not attack each other.

Enjoy your season.

I almost addressed the coach v. manager aspect but I DID assume that a minor league manager would be the one to make such a decision so you got me there.

I am not defending anybody's "error", I am sharing how you were perceived by a disinterested third party (and I'm not the only one it seems). Context is important. I don't really care who is "right".

Might I offer a piece of friendly advice and advise you just relax a little and get to know the place and participants? It may provide a more pleasant experience. But you are free to do as you wish.

My friend, I feel no ill will towards any one here. Six years in Asia taught me to embrace life differently.

One of the PMs I received asked why I always wish people a safe or enjoyable season in closing. I hope it is obvious now.

Thank you.

Have a good season, Mike. I am not going to be calling baseball this year but I hope to return next year.

If the catcher sets-up giving the pitcher a target behind the batter him and the coach are getting a warning. If the pitcher throws behind the batter and the batter gets hit I'm givng him first base. An 11-12 year old kid is going to get the benefit of the doubt all day that in my opinion he was trying to avoid the ball and headed the wrong way.

When one writes a post that deviates as far from the OP situation (11-12 year olds v. MiLB) one should so inform his audience. Not doing so was the cause of confusion rather than anyone assuming anything.

I realize the confusion. I have read numerous threads where people change the subject, rules used or particulars from the original play. I didn't know that I had to do anything different.

I'm moving on now. I wish you a good season and that none of these coach's game playing makes its way onto your fields. Thanks.