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The batter attempts to bunt with 2 strikes but POPS it up
Hi all!
The batter attempts to bunt with 2 strikes but POPS it up where F2 makes the catch in foul territory. R1 was moving on the pitch. Is the batter out because he bunts foul (dead ball and F2 can't try to eliminate R1 on first base) or because F2 makes the catch(ball alive and in play and F2 can try to eliminate R1)? |
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Note that the rules do not differentiate between a caught foul fly and a caught fair fly--they are both simply a caught fly ball. So as already answered, it's a catch and the ball is live.
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"Is the batter out because he bunts foul (dead ball and F2 can't try to eliminate R1 on first base)"
I have never heard of dead ball on third strike, foul bunt. |
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That's the rule in all codes (I suppose there might be some very-young-youth rule that has something different). It's a dead ball becasue it's foul. (I assume we're NOT talking about the caught ball here). It's an out to stop the batter from continually bunting foul to tire the pitcher. |
Dead because foul.
That makes sense. I have probably called it 50 times and it just never registered what I just did. Too simple |
This question was on the NCAA test. My immediate thought is that the batter is out and the ball is dead the second the catcher touches it. Runners cannot advance and must return. Penalties in baseball are designed to punish the person/team at fault - in this case, the batter.
If the catcher had not caught the ball the result would still be the same, right? I answered it this way. If it was wrong I'll know in a couple days. Good luck. |
No catch, it's a strike out. Catch, runner can retouch and attempt to advance. I think you're thinking too much about penalty versus just watching baseball and letting it happened.
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This is a situation where F2 screwed up by catching the ball. Granted, in most situations, no runner will advance. However, by letting the ball drop foul, the ball's dead and the runners can't advance.
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I have a lote/hate relationship with these questions. I enjoy discussing them but hate seeing them on tests. I appreciate the thoughts but want to ask a couple things:
1) The batted ball is not foul until it is touched while on or over foul terrirtory. By definition, it is a dead ball at the time that happens, right? 2) Yes, I know that a caught fly ball, even foul, is live. But does the bunt attempt supersede it? 2) If that is the case, it is a TOP play, right? I have pored over J/R and can't find a definitive ruling. Anyone have the EXACT ruling to substantiate our call here? My test has already been submitted and I passed. My questions are for discussion and improvement only. Thanks again. |
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5.09 The ball becomes dead and runners advance one base, or return to their bases, without liability to be put out, when— (e) A foul ball is not caught; runners return. The umpire shall not put the ball in play until all runners have retouched their bases;
6.05 A batter is out when— (a) His fair or foul fly ball (other than a foul tip) is legally caught by a fielder; Comment: Ball is in play, unless the fielder, after making a legal catch, falls into a dugout or other out-of-play area, in which case the ball is dead. A CATCH is the act of a fielder in getting secure possession in his hand or glove of a ball in flight and firmly holding it; providing he does not use his cap, protector, pocket or any other part of his uniform in getting possession. |
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JJ |
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A foul is not foul until touched or it comes to a stop on foul ground. As this ball was touched and secured, as the result of an attempted bunt with two strikes, by rule it should be immediately dead. Obviously we have an issue of whether the foul third strike supersedes a foul catch. So far I haven't seen anything that I can use to call this a live ball. I hate these plays but know that it wouldn't be in there unless it happened to one of us and will again. Thanks. |
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No, "we" don't. One of us is confusing "touched" with caught, they are not the same. A ball that is in flight off the bat that is "caught" can never be foul. It's a caught fly ball and caught fly balls are live. A ball that was foul, can not be caught, because it either hit (beyond 1B-3B), settled, was touched (read booted), or hit something over foul territory. |
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For all otherss, I am seeking an official rule book reference for this play. It is impossible to separate touch and catch on this play. The ball was not bobbled (nor booted) and no mention of an improper release occured. The second the player touched it, it was caught. The ensuing play, as described indicates as much. Anyone else seen an umpire watch a batted ball get caught in foul territory, signal catch and then point foul? Why indicate the place of catch if a caught fly ball is just a caught fly ball? Thank you. |
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Thank you. I saw the J/R reference but it does not provide a ruling. The Jim Evans book is outstanding but not a rule book. I would love to see an NCAA umpire try to show that to a coach. This is one of those wierd plays that makes me hate umpiring but love the game. I really appreciate the effort to look this up. The NCAA rulings come out in a few days. It looks like I got it wrong but that won't be the first or last time. Have a good season. |
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This really isn't as complicated as you are trying to make it. There is no need to separate the touch and the catch. He popped it up, it was caught, period.
If he popped it up and F2 attempted to catch the ball, standing 3' in foul territory but bobbled it and the ball fell to the ground in fair territory...we have a touch in or over foul territory and thus a dead ball, foul (then we talk about the count, etc) - and the batter is out because his bunt attempt on the 3rd strike was bunted foul. Your situation is just a catch, that's all. Forget the 3rd strike, forget the bunt attempt. He popped up to F2 - he's out because F2 CAUGHT THE BALL. You won't have a coach try to argue the difference in touch and catch in this situation. It's a caught fly ball, the ball is live by definition. |
Please listen and read ManInBlue's post. It really is that simple.
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NCAA 8-6.a A runner shall be called out on specifi appeals that are made when: (1) The base runer does not retouch the base before a fielder tags the runner or the base after a fair or foul fly ball i stouched in making a legal catch. Can't get any clearer. |
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Thanks to all for clarifying this play. The exam questions and answers come out soon and I'm sure we'll see more talk about them here. |
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Study Guide
Page 29, College Baseball Rules Study Guide.
Batter is out: D. With two strikes, he bunts foul (7-11i). If the ball is caught in flight, it remains live; otherwise the ball is dead immediately. |
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How about FED ruling? 7-4-1e "an attempt to bunt on thrird strike is a foul." Same play mentioned in OP but following FED you have an out with dead ball... Some of us still doing HS :) but always trying to learn.
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and 5-1-1-d-3 says it becomes dead if it becomes an UNCAUGHT foul |
This rule is the same in all codes. The batter is out, the ball remains live, runners can attempt to advance, they are subject to appeal if they don't retouch after the ball is touched, ...
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What is the College Baseball Rules Study Guide? Where may I purchase this, or read it on the 'net if it exists there? Thank you |
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JJ |
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Go to referee.com and click on the publications link on the left...then click on the word baseball and you'll see it there. it's $20 and a good read.
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Study Guide: College Baseball Rules 2011 20% NASO MEMBER DISCOUNT AVAILABLE - applied at checkout : JJ |
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2.16.1 COMMENT: Determining when the ball becomes dead on a foul is sometimes tricky. With R1 on second and no one out, consider the following: (1) An attempted bunt on third strike by B2 is a foul fly that is caught by F2. B2 would have been out without the catch, but because of the catch, F1 is not credited with a strikeout and R1 may attempt to advance after the catch. I think we've thorougly beat this horse dead... in all rule codes. |
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The definition of "foul" okay, I see your angle. however none of my OBR based literature offers a definition of FOUL. so don't know where you going with that? However the OP and my statements concern a "foul ball". The definition of "foul ball" can very well be dependent on whether caught or not. In the OP as I see the intent, is 100% "dependent" on whether caught or not. OBR Definition: A FOUL BALL is a batted ball that settles on foul territory between home and first base, or between home and third base, or that bounds past first or third base on or over foul territory, or that first falls on foul territory beyond first or third base, or that, while on or over foul territory, touches the person of an umpire or player, or any object foreign to the natural ground. The definition of a catch however, has no dependence on fair or foul. OBR Definition: A CATCH is the act of a fielder in getting secure possession in his hand or glove of a ball in flight and firmly holding it; providing he does not use his cap, protector, pocket or any other part of his uniform in getting possession. |
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2) You said fair/foul can be dependent on caught or not - but you quoted the rule which makes no mention of the location of the ball. Lets look at the relevant part: A FOUL BALL is a batted ball . . . that, while on or over foul territory, touches the person of an umpire or player, or any object foreign to the natural ground. Was the ball over foul ground - yes. Did it touch a player while there? - Yes It's foul. Caught/Not Caught is completely independent of fair/foul. Live/dead on a foul ball IS dependent on caught/not caught, but first you have to know 1) was it fair or foul and 2) was it caught or not. |
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A fly ball over foul territory with a defender under it is neither fair nor foul. The fact that if it were to fall or be touched while over foul territory would make it foul, it is not until, after that "something" happens. If the ball is caught over foul territory it's still in play, why, because it did not become a foul ball. |
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e) A foul ball is not caught, in which case runners return to their bases. The umpire-inchief shall not put the ball in play until all runners have retouched their bases; Live/dead is always dependent on one thing on a foul ball. Wither it was caught or uncaught. Uncaught, ball is dead. Caught the ball remains live. The rulebook is meant to be read, not for you to just look at the nice little diagrams. |
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The 2.00 definition of Foul Ball which you posted above. 5.09 The ball becomes dead and runners advance one base, or return to their bases, without liability to be put out, when— (e) A foul ball is not caught, in which case runners return to their bases. This is necessary because "caught" is the other possible outcome 6.05 A batter is out when— (a) His fair or foul fly ball (other than a foul tip) is legally caught by a fielder; Rule 6.05(a) Comment: A fielder may reach into, but not step into, a dugout to make a catch, and if he holds the ball, the catch shall be allowed. A fielder, in order to make a catch on a foul ball nearing a dugout or other out-of-play area (such as the stands), must have one or both feet on or over the playing surface (including the lip of the dugout) and neither foot on the ground inside the dugout or in any other out-of-play area. Ball is in play, unless the fielder, after making a legal catch, falls into a dugout or other out-of-play area, in which case the ball is dead. 7.08 Any runner is out when— (d) He fails to retouch his base after a fair or foul ball is legally caught before he, or his base, is tagged by a fielder. 10.08 SACRIFICES The official scorer shall: (d) Score a sacrifice fly when, before two are out, the batter hits a ball in flight handled by an outfielder or an infielder running in the outfield in fair or foul territory that (1) is caught, and a runner scores after the catch, or (2) is dropped, and a runner scores, if in the scorer’s judgment the runner could have scored after the catch had the fly been caught. |
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Shock
Gentlemen,
Four pages on this? Has umpiring and rules knowledge gotten so bad in our country that fundamentals 1st year guys should know before they start umpiring disappeared? I am concerned. :eek::confused::mad::( |
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No need for concern. The number of informed umpires in this thread is far larger than the number of the uninformed and stubborn. On any board and in any association, there's always one. |
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The NCAA test review is out and it seems that I answered this question correctly. I appreciate those of you who offered rulings, even if they weren't relevant to NCAA ball. Good luck this season.
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Can you post the entire NCAA exam? (not your results, but the questions would be great)
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Here is the question from my 50 questions: R1. The batter has fouled off the first two sacrifice bunt attempts. The batter attempts to bunt a third time but pops it up where F2 makes the catch in fould territory. R1 was moving on the pitch and F2's throw to first arrives before R1 can get back. a. The batter is out and the ball is dead immediately. b. R1 is not called out. c. The result is an immediate dead ball when the catcher touches the foul pop up. d. This results in a double play. The answer is d. I met with some NCAA officials who had this question too but contend that it was worded poorly. They insist that just because the throw arrived prior to the runner does not mean the runner is out and d assumes something not presented. I guess that means that they believe the play is an immediate dead ball then. Undoubtedly, I will be working the bases when this play happens to them. ;) |
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Translation: When they took the test they got the answer wrong and are too pig-headed to admit they were wrong. |
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The old Fed test used to be this way. Some umpires read things that weren't there and sometimes the rule writers meant to write one thing but didn't, thus corrections to scores.
In other news, I just read that three MLB umpires are officially retiring, giving the chance to guys who have been waiting a long time. That's nice to see. |
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