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dash_riprock Tue Feb 01, 2011 09:44pm

Another NCAA question
 
R2 is attempting to score on a base hit. As R2 approaches home plate, the throw from F9 is up the third base line causing F2 to move up the baseline in order to catch the ball. As the ball is approximately 10 feet from F2 and he is preparing to glove the ball, he collides with R2 and both are knocked to the ground. F1, backing up the play, picks up the ball and tags R2 before he can touch home base.

a. This is obstruction by F2 and R1 is awarded home.

b. This is a legal play and R1 is called out on the tag by F1 and is ejected if the slide is deemed flagrant.

c.This is interference by R1 and he is called out immediately.

d.This is a legal play and R2 is called out on the tag by F1.

N.B. D is the only answer that correctly identifies the baserunner. I don't know if it's 3 typos or a clue.

bob jenkins Tue Feb 01, 2011 09:51pm

See the NCAA pre-season guide, Obstruction article, play 4. That has this as obstruction.

johnnyg08 Tue Feb 01, 2011 10:29pm

Can anybody send me a copy of the NCAA test? I don't work NCAA, but I do study the CCA and read the rules each year (well, every-other) per the rewrite, so I'd simply like to try the test. Send me a PM if you can help. I guess I'm not interested in paying $100 to take a test for fun. Thanks!

dash_riprock Tue Feb 01, 2011 10:33pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by bob jenkins (Post 724950)
See the NCAA pre-season guide, Obstruction article, play 4. That has this as obstruction.

That's why I posted it. If I didn't look at the supplement, I would have answered D.

From the rule book, 2.54 A.R. 1: If the fielder is about to receive a thrown ball and the ball is in flight directly toward and near enough to the fielder so he must occupy his position to receive the throw, he may be considered "in the act" of fielding.

johnnyg08 Tue Feb 01, 2011 10:42pm

I just looked at the supplement...it's very good. 16 pages of good, good stuff.

ODJ Wed Feb 02, 2011 12:16am

Quote:

Originally Posted by dash_riprock (Post 724960)
That's why I posted it. If I didn't look at the supplement, I would have answered D.

From the rule book, 2.54 A.R. 1: If the fielder is about to receive a thrown ball and the ball is in flight directly toward and near enough to the fielder so he must occupy his position to receive the throw, he may be considered "in the act" of fielding.

"Occupying one's position" is not moving up the line to catch a ball.

zm1283 Wed Feb 02, 2011 12:41am

Quote:

Originally Posted by ODJ (Post 724993)
"Occupying one's position" is not moving up the line to catch a ball.

To me, "occupy his position" means the position he is in to catch the ball. Now if he's running up the line chasing the ball, I have OBS, but if he is standing there waiting on it and is about to field the throw, I've got nothing.

Is it me or are these questions horribly written?

zm1283 Wed Feb 02, 2011 01:03am

Quote:

Originally Posted by dash_riprock (Post 724946)
R2 is attempting to score on a base hit. As R2 approaches home plate, the throw from F9 is up the third base line causing F2 to move up the baseline in order to catch the ball. As the ball is approximately 10 feet from F2 and he is preparing to glove the ball, he collides with R2 and both are knocked to the ground. F1, backing up the play, picks up the ball and tags R2 before he can touch home base.

a. This is obstruction by F2 and R1 is awarded home.

b. This is a legal play and R1 is called out on the tag by F1 and is ejected if the slide is deemed flagrant.

c.This is interference by R1 and he is called out immediately.

d.This is a legal play and R2 is called out on the tag by F1.

N.B. D is the only answer that correctly identifies the baserunner. I don't know if it's 3 typos or a clue.

As I said above, I've got a legal play. In the 2011 New Rules Video on the NCAA Central Hub, this play is covered in several video clips starting around the 9-minute mark.

B or D are the only possible correct answers, but are they trying to trick us by using R1 instead of R2, or is it just a typo? R2 could possibly be ejected for a collision above the waist, so B could be correct. D could also be correct if you just leave out the part about the collision. Color me confused.

zm1283 Wed Feb 02, 2011 01:07am

Quote:

Originally Posted by bob jenkins (Post 724950)
See the NCAA pre-season guide, Obstruction article, play 4. That has this as obstruction.

That play sounds exactly like the play at the 8:47 mark in the video I'm talking about. There is a single to left field, F2 goes up the third base line to take the throw and there is contact as he is fielding the throw. This seems like a contradiction to me.

dash_riprock Wed Feb 02, 2011 08:05am

Quote:

Originally Posted by ODJ (Post 724993)
"Occupying one's position" is not moving up the line to catch a ball.

Obviously, that's the NCAA's take on it. I guess since "F2 collided with R2," he (F2) was moving when the contact occurred, in which case I understand the OBS ruling. But the ruling on a similar play in the supplement says "by moving up the line a few feet, F2 lost his protection [from OBS]." What caused him to lose his protection? Was it because he had to leave his position (even if he was stopped and where he needed to be to field the throw) or because he was moving when the collision occurred? Clear as mud.

I welcome difficult questions, but not when I have to guess at the facts instant to the situation.

The correct answer should be E - HTBT, although I'm answering A when I submit the test.

MikeStrybel Wed Feb 02, 2011 05:50pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by dash_riprock (Post 724946)
R2 is attempting to score on a base hit. As R2 approaches home plate, the throw from F9 is up the third base line causing F2 to move up the baseline in order to catch the ball. As the ball is approximately 10 feet from F2 and he is preparing to glove the ball, he collides with R2 and both are knocked to the ground. F1, backing up the play, picks up the ball and tags R2 before he can touch home base.

a. This is obstruction by F2 and R1 is awarded home.

b. This is a legal play and R1 is called out on the tag by F1 and is ejected if the slide is deemed flagrant.

c.This is interference by R1 and he is called out immediately.

d.This is a legal play and R2 is called out on the tag by F1.

N.B. D is the only answer that correctly identifies the baserunner. I don't know if it's 3 typos or a clue.

On page 8 of the NCAA supplement, play 3: the catcher is contacted just before receiving the ball and they call it baseball. The very next question is eerily similar to play 4 just below it. In this one the fielder is taken up the line a few feet to catch the ball and the contact is made. They call it obstruction. I would ignore the test typo and rule it the same way - a.

JJ Wed Feb 02, 2011 06:36pm

The reason for it being considered obstruction on the catcher isn't because of the collision, it's that once the ball got away from the catcher he could no longer block the runner's path to the plate.

JJ

bob jenkins Wed Feb 02, 2011 06:53pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by JJ (Post 725395)
The reason for it being considered obstruction on the catcher isn't because of the collision, it's that once the ball got away from the catcher he could no longer block the runner's path to the plate.

JJ

I don't see that the play in the NCAA guide indicates any blocking after the ball got away.

bob jenkins Wed Feb 02, 2011 08:00pm

This would be a good quesiton for Mazza to ask his instructors at Harry's.

JJ Wed Feb 02, 2011 09:18pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by bob jenkins (Post 725403)
I don't see that the play in the NCAA guide indicates any blocking after the ball got away.

I actually answered "d" on my test (won't know till the 13th if I got it right or not), but the question implies that the runner might have been blocked after the collision....."F1, backing up the play, picks up the ball and tags R2 before he can touch home base." That tells me he was still trying to get to the plate and the catcher didn't have the ball anymore. FWIW.

JJ

UmpTTS43 Wed Feb 02, 2011 11:59pm

According to the NCAA, the correct answer is A. Since F2 had to leave his initial position to go after the ball, he lost his protection from committing OBS. The NCAA, as well as OBR, defines "in the act of fielding" if the ball is "near enough" and "directly toward" the fielder. Since F2 had to chase after the errant throw, the ball was not directly to F2, therefore he was not "in the act of fielding" and that result ends up being OBS.

In situations where F2 has to go up the line to receive a throw, you have to judge whether F2 is chasing after the throw or has reestablished a position in order to receive the throw. If F2 has gone up the line and has stopped or gained a position to where the throw is "directly toward" him, you can now consider him "in the act of fielding." If F2 is still chasing, as in the OP, he has not reestablished his position.

Durham Thu Feb 03, 2011 01:21am

I answered D both times I took the test. If the catcher is in the act of fielding and moving with the purpose of making a legitimate play on the ball you cannot have obstruction. I don't see a difference on a thrown vs batted ball and we protect a fielder while moving to make a play on a batted ball, so how is this different?

MikeStrybel Thu Feb 03, 2011 07:35am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Durham (Post 725518)
I answered D both times I took the test. If the catcher is in the act of fielding and moving with the purpose of making a legitimate play on the ball you cannot have obstruction. I don't see a difference on a thrown vs batted ball and we protect a fielder while moving to make a play on a batted ball, so how is this different?

I suggest you check this play out: Play 4 on page 8 of the NCAA supplement - With R2 on second, B1 singles to right. F9's throw is slightly wide of third base. F2 moves up the line a few feet. R2 collides with F2 just as the ball arrives. F2 is able to retrieve the ball and tag out R2.

Ruling: By moving up the line a few feet, F2 lost his protection and must have the ball in order to block R2. F2 is guilty of obstruction. Award R2 home.

That looks really similar to the exam question. The throw takes the player up the line a few feet and the ball hasn't arrived. Loss of protection and obstruction are justified according to the supplement.

These questions are more reading tests than rules knowledge. Good luck!

dash_riprock Thu Feb 03, 2011 08:18am

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeStrybel (Post 725568)

These questions are more reading tests than rules knowledge.

And sometimes the reading is mind reading. With respect to questions like this, it's much easier to get it right on the field than on the test.

bob jenkins Thu Feb 03, 2011 08:43am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Durham (Post 725518)
I answered D both times I took the test. If the catcher is in the act of fielding and moving with the purpose of making a legitimate play on the ball you cannot have obstruction. I don't see a difference on a thrown vs batted ball and we protect a fielder while moving to make a play on a batted ball, so how is this different?

The difference is who put the ball in a spot where the fielder had to move to get it?

JJ Thu Feb 03, 2011 09:36am

Quote:

Originally Posted by UmpTTS43 (Post 725507)
According to the NCAA, the correct answer is A.

Probably so, but according to the test answer key we still don't know that for sure.....because we won't have the correct answers until the 13th. ;)

JJ

Durham Thu Feb 03, 2011 06:11pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by bob jenkins (Post 725601)
The difference is who put the ball in a spot where the fielder had to move to get it?

If you you are saying is true, then why do we have this AR in the NCAA rule book?

A.R. 3—If a fielder has a chance to field a batted ball, but misplays it and while attempting to recover it, the ball is in the fielder’s immediate reach and the fielder is contacted by the base runner attempting to reach a base, interference shall be called.

By that logic, your argument stands on unstable ground. The fielder was there to make a legitimate play. Keep in mind why he was there and the fact that he is in the act of fielding.

LittleLeagueBob Sat Feb 05, 2011 11:19pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by UmpTTS43 (Post 725507)
According to the NCAA, the correct answer is A. Since F2 had to leave his initial position to go after the ball, he lost his protection from committing OBS. The NCAA, as well as OBR, defines "in the act of fielding" if the ball is "near enough" and "directly toward" the fielder. Since F2 had to chase after the errant throw, the ball was not directly to F2, therefore he was not "in the act of fielding" and that result ends up being OBS.

In situations where F2 has to go up the line to receive a throw, you have to judge whether F2 is chasing after the throw or has reestablished a position in order to receive the throw. If F2 has gone up the line and has stopped or gained a position to where the throw is "directly toward" him, you can now consider him "in the act of fielding." If F2 is still chasing, as in the OP, he has not reestablished his position.

If I can slightly hijack the OP - does this type of ruling change how we should judge the "classic" trainwreck at 1st? You know, where the throw from F5 pulls F3 up and into the basepath of the BR. I've always thought of them as just that - trainwrecks - and still consider F3 in the act of fielding the ball - but play 4 in the supplement looks like it could support the OBS call at 1st as well...


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