A Batting Out of Order Question
 

In NCAA, during a BOO appeal, do the outs made by runners other than the improper batter stand?

For example, 1 out, R1 and R3. In the top half on an inning, an improper batter drives one to the gap. R3 scores, R1 is thrown out at the plate (2 outs), and BR is thrown out at 3rd trying to stretch it into a triple (3 outs - inninng over). Teams change sides.

Now, in the bottom half of the inning, before the next pitch to the next batter, the Offensive Coach (formerly the Defensive Coach of the top half inning) appeals the batting out of order in the top half by the improper batter. The appeal is upheld, and so as a result, the improper batter and R3's run are erased and the proper batter is declared out; BUT what happens to R2and his out at home?

I'm trying to find out in the NCAA 2010 rule book whether outs made during a boo stand (as in the FED Rule Book).

I don't do NCAA but my 2008 BRD reads:

NCAA: After a legal appeal, the proper batter is out and "ALL RUNNERS" return to bases occupied before the action of the improper batter. 7-11a-2 (Note 92: "All runners" clearly implies that even runners who were out will be returned).

"..."ALL RUNNERS" return to bases occupied before the action of the improper batter. 7-11a-2 (Note 92: "All runners" clearly implies that even runners who were out will be returned). "


Forerst Ump,

That would in effect mean in this situation that the two NCAA teams would have to go back to top half of the inning and resume play with 2 outs. Doesn't sound practical...

Whereas, in FED, the outs would stand and you would still have 3 outs and no runs scoring (provided the appeal took place before the fielders left the field in the top half of the inning).

May not seem it - but that's what you do.

Proper batter out. R1 and R3 back to the base where they were before the ball was hit.

The ruling would be the same on OBR.

In OBR the only time runners do anything other than return to where they were is if they advanced independently from the improper batter's actions (my language, not the book's).

If memory serves me correct, there are 5 situations that can make a runner's advancement legal and he would not be subject to return after a proper appeal on BOO.

1) Passed ball / Wild Pitch
2) Steal (including advancement on CI during steal attempt I assume)
3) Balk
4)
5)

Evans may have put passed ball and wild pitch as two separate categories, but I'm still missing one more. help:confused:

I believe that the results are the same in all 3 codes: OBR, NCAA and FED. Here's the FED Rule:

"The proper batter is declared out and return all runners to the base occupied at the time of the pitch." 7-2-2.

So R3 and R1 in the OP are returned to their TOP bases; 1 out.

BSUmp,

1. The correct cite for the text you quoted is 7-1-2, Penalty 2.

2. If you read 7-1-1, you will find the sentence "...Any outs made on the play stand. ..."

The FED rule is MATERIALLY different from the OBR & NCAA rules governing the sitch. The language you cite only refers to remaining runners who were NOT put out on the play.

JM

You're right - 7-1-1 says "any outs made on the play stand." But the Penalty Section says "WHEN THE IMPROPER BATTER BECOMES A RUNNER OR IS PUT OUT... the umpire shall declare the proper batter out and return all runners to the base occupied at the time of the pitch."

I see no reason, either in the wording of the rule or the spirit of the rule why the result is MATERIALLY different in FED than in NCAA or OBR.

I believe what the rule is saying is that if the improper batter is discovered PRIOR to becoming a runner, any outs made while he is still at bat stand. However, once he becomes a runner, and on proper appeal, he is declared out and all runners return to their TOP base.

For example, if during the improper batter's time at bat, the catcher successfully throws down on a runner stealing (an out) that out stands. But after the improper batter becomes a runner, then FED, NCAA and OBR are all the same: the improper batter is out and all runners return to their TOP bases.

In FED, all outs stand due to the actions of the improper batter becoming a runner.

This is not true for NCAA and OBR.

Well, I guess if you say so, it must be true. If you want to be a blindly loyal, blissfully accepting follower, that is your right. But you don't have to be so defensive and insulting of people who choose to have their eyes and minds open to what the realities are.

UmpTTS43, is right.

Furthermore, why bring up a FED ruling when the OP was clearly asking for the NCAA interpretation of BOO? If you do, at least get your facts straight....:(

Where are there any insults?

I mentioned the FED rule because cookie originally brought it up in his September 23 post (see above). The "blindly loyal" quote is from UmpTTS43's personal quotes. I was trying to say that just because someone says its true, doesn't necessarily mean its true. I still have not seen anything official that contradicts the interpretation I've given. I agree I may be wrong, the FED Rule I cite is ambiguous. I'm not sure I can rely on "it is because we say so" as an official or even semi-official interpretation, especially when the rule itself says WHEN THE IMPROPER BATTER BECOMES A RUNNER OR IS PUT OUT... the umpire shall declare the proper batter out and return all runners to the base occupied at the time of the pitch.", which at least has the advantage of being consistent with both the OBR and NCAA rules. Again, I may be wrong, but "Because I said so" is not real convincing

Most of us believe it means that the outs stand.

If that makes us "a blindly loyal, blissfully accepting follower" then so be it.

You are right, if I say so, it is true. The only loyal accepting follower you see is one that understands the rules and their applications.

If I was meant to be insulting, my post would have read something along the lines of this.

It's a good thing that I don't feel it is necessary to be insulting. I merely pointed out a fact that you do not accept as being true. Have a nice day.

Well then, if I read 7-1-1 and 7-1-2 PENALTIES, combine them, then with R1 and R3 and 1 out, if defense turns a 6-4-3 DP in FED on the batted ball by improper batter then there are 3 outs and no score, the proper batter is called out as the 2nd out in the 6-4-3 and the improper batter could very well be the next batter. If it happens with 0 outs then R3 returns to 3b after the DP.

This is materially different than OBR and NCAA.

Damn, I believe you're beginning to catch on.

Look - I admit 2 things: The rule is ambiguous. I may be wrong. I'm just looking for some authoritative interpretation that says what you say the rule says it says. There is nothing definitive in the rule that says what you say it says. The Casebook doesn't have anything that supports your position (or disproves your position for that matter). Nothing in "Baseball Rules by Topic" (published by NFHS) supports your position. BRT says:

"When an improper batter becomes a runner or is put out and the defensive team appeals to the umpire before the first legal or illegal pitch, or play or attempted play, or prior to an intentional base on balls or before the infielders leave the diamond if a half-inning is ending, the umpire shall declare the proper batter out and return all runners to the base occupied at the time of the pitch."

Nowhere can I find that it says the penalty applies "except for runners called out during the improper batters time at bat.", which is what you are saying. Further, nothing in "Baseball Rules Simplified & Illustrated" (also published by NFHS) says what you say is the penalty.

All I am asking is that if the rule is universally interpreted the way you say it is, provide me some authority - any authority.

Finally, if you can't engage in a simple dialogue without resorting to personal insults, that's OK too, but if that's all you got, you don't got much.

I haven't done FED in several years, but as I recall there was no ambiguity about BOO. This from the 2006 BRD might help:

Play 65-83: R1, 0 out. Able should bat but Baker steps in and hits into a 6-4-3 double play. The umpire recognizes the appeal of the defense. Ruling: In FED, R1 remains out. Able is out, and Baker bats with the bases empty. In NCAA and OBR, R1 returns to 1B, Able is out, and Baker is the next batter.

Note 94: FED has had a tough time with BOO since they added the unannounced editorial change ("outs made on play stand") in 1991. For three glorious years the ruling in play 65-83 above would have been a triple play. Improper batter Baker hits into a double play. So: (1) the improper batter is out, (2) the runner on base is out, and (3) the proper batter is out. In 1994 they killed that possibility with: "An out for BOO supersedes an out by the improper batter on a play." (7-1-2b Ex)

Dear BSUmp16,

OK. Lets see what the rule book says. I'm going to open up the 2010 FED rule book, turn to page 41 and read Rule 7, Section 1, Article 1.

This is what is says.

WOW. Who would have thought that by actually reading the rule, not just the penalties section, one would have gotten the information needed to make a justifiable ruling?

The reference you quote is to plays made during the time the improper batter is a batter and before he becomes a batter/runner. Of course an out for batting out of order supersedes an out by the improper batter on a play. No one ever disputed that. You can't just read one section though and ignore the other section. I could just as easily say the opposite of what you're saying by quoting only the penalty section.

I think graymule is on the right track. Apparently I too have had a tough time with BOO since they added the unannounced editorial change ("outs made on play stand"). I appreciate graymule's citation to authority. Thanks

Where do you get this stuff?


"Only the defensive team may appeal batting out of order after the batter has completed his time at bat. Any outs made on the play stand."

I beginning to believe you are most aptly named, BS Ump.

The FED definition of "play" is something like "from the time F1 releases the ball until F1 has the ball back and action is relaxed."

So, in the context of this discussion, "outs on the play stand" means what we've been saying -- outs during the play following the improper batter hitting the ball stand.

If it meant what you imply, it would read "outs made during the improper batter's turn at bat stand"

Doesn't the FED casebook give a definitive example for BOO?

At least we're not dealing with softball, in which the three major codes handle BOO three different ways. In the play where B2 bats instead of B1 and hits into a double play, NCAA follows OBR by having only B1 called out and B2 bat again with R1 returning; FED has B1 and R1 out with B2 batting again; and ASA has B1 out and counts the double play, with B3 leading off the next inning (two batters, three outs).

Not for this question. Probably because they don't think it necessary.

As other blindly loyal, blissfully accepting followers have stated, the outs made as a result of the improper batter becoming a batter runner stand.

Any outs made while the improper batter is at bat also stand, attempted stolen base, pickoff, etc. This is true in all three rule codes, FED, NCAA and OBR.

OK - You're right. It's been fun though

I've come late to this party, and I can't tell for sure whether you're trolling or simply clueless. I (and every umpire I've ever met or talked to ... except you) read the following passage in the rulebook: "any outs made on the play stand" as a rather unambiguous direct statement that we construe to mean that ANY OUTS MADE ON THE PLAY STAND. If you can't take that statement, right there in the rulebook, as clear statement of FED's rule on the matter, I don't think anything else will help you. Perhaps attend a clinic, ask your supervisor, their supervisor, whatever.

Are you under the perception that in the hundreds of thousands of FED baseball games played in the last many many years, NO ONE has realized that every single one of us is calling it wrong? Seems rather unbelievable, doesn't it?

Are you under the perception that in the hundreds of thousands of FED baseball games played in the last many many years, NO ONE has realized that every single one of us is calling it wrong? Seems rather unbelievable, doesn't it?

Yep - See above

I never found the rule to be unambiguos, confusing, not clear, etc...It says exactly what to do.

All of the codes are all rather straight forward and perfectly clear to me.

In all my years, I've had ONE BOO - and they were 9 and everyone was cluelss anyway - they wanted the out just for him being up there!!

Asked and answered.