A different take

greymule · #1 (**permalink**) Mon Aug 30, 2010, 08:11am

From the letter of the rules, we know that (1) a 1B or 3B coach cannot physically assist a runner, and (2) another runner can physically assist a runner.

So let's examine a case that falls into neither category. What if a runner trips coming home and a player from his dugout runs out, helps the runner up, and pushes him across home plate just before the ball arrives? What if the batboy assists the runner in such a way? The trainer?

Is there a rule that prohibits such action?

The usual reference books apparently have nothing on this (or assistance by a runner who has been put out), perhaps because if coaches can't assist a runner, it's obvious that other members of the offense can't, either.

Originally, the rule applied only to the 3B coach. It was later extended to include the 1B coach. I suspect that the rulesmakers simply never imagined anyone else assisting a runner.

MrUmpire · #2 (**permalink**) Mon Aug 30, 2010, 11:53am

Quote:

Originally Posted by greymule

from the letter of the rules, we know that (1) a 1b or 3b coach cannot physically assist a runner, and (2) another runner can physically assist a runner.

So let's examine a case that falls into neither category. What if a runner trips coming home and a player from his dugout runs out, helps the runner up, and pushes him across home plate just before the ball arrives? What if the batboy assists the runner in such a way? The trainer?

Is there a rule that prohibits such action?

The usual reference books apparently have nothing on this (or assistance by a runner who has been put out), perhaps because if coaches can't assist a runner, it's obvious that other members of the offense can't, either.

Originally, the rule applied only to the 3b coach. It was later extended to include the 1b coach. I suspect that the rulesmakers simply never imagined anyone else assisting a runner.

+1

BSUmp16 · #3 (**permalink**) Mon Aug 30, 2010, 03:35pm

I have no idea if the softball rules allow for this type of thing or if they're similar to OBR in this situation, but here is how the softball umpires ruled on ESPN's "Best Moment in Sports, 2008"

YouTube - Softball player carried around bases by opponents

nopachunts · #4 (**permalink**) Mon Aug 30, 2010, 03:52pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BSUmp16

I have no idea if the softball rules allow for this type of thing or if they're similar to OBR in this situation, but here is how the softball umpires ruled on ESPN's "Best Moment in Sports, 2008"

YouTube - Softball player carried around bases by opponents

But this video is members of the defense helping the runner around the bases, not the offense helping another teammate. Apples and oranges.

greymule · #5 (**permalink**) Mon Aug 30, 2010, 05:18pm

In ASA softball, the offense could carry the runner around.

The ASA wording is The runner is out . . . when any offensive team member other than another runner physically assists a runner while the ball is live.

Then follows something a bit cryptic: Exception: After a runner has scored and missed home plate and then is physically assisted back to home plate, the ball is dead, the runner is out, and the run is nullified.

The wording was changed fairly recently from anyone other than another runner, which some people pointed out could include F6.

BSUmp16 · #6 (**permalink**) Mon Aug 30, 2010, 05:38pm

I know this softball video was the defense assisting the offense, but what I was trying to highlight was that the reason the defense carried the runner was because the umpires had (according to the video) ruled that if a member of the offense had assisted the runner, the runner would be out, which is what the original post was about. Anyhow, according to greymule ASA would have ruled Morgan out when he was assisted back to the plate. Does Hernandez do ASA too?

umpjong · #7 (**permalink**) Mon Aug 30, 2010, 07:34pm

The NCAA rulebook has the similar wording, but in reviewing the 2009 Study Guide for NCAA that is put out by Referee magazine they have this rule interpreted as a base coach or another runner physically assisting him being grounds for an out. An e-mail has been sent for clarification since there is no interp citation of either a NCAA rules person nor a cite that it comes from MLB.
Will post (or JJ will) when an answer comes in. This is interesting since according to the study guide another base runner cannot physically assist while on the base paths. Hopefully this is not the authors own interp and we can track down the origin. Otherwise we are still where we are now........ Its unusual that an interp in this book is not cited by either a NCAA person or MLB.

rbmartin · #8 (**permalink**) Tue Aug 31, 2010, 08:34am

Hypothetically, what would happen if a player (already scored) pushes a player back toward home plate, then realizes his mistake and tackles him, thus preventing him from retouching? Would that then necessitate an appeal for a missed base from the defense since the offensive player didnt actually assist the player?

JJ · #9 (**permalink**) Wed Sep 01, 2010, 09:18am

Quote:

Originally Posted by umpjong

The NCAA rulebook has the similar wording, but in reviewing the 2009 Study Guide for NCAA that is put out by Referee magazine they have this rule interpreted as a base coach or another runner physically assisting him being grounds for an out. An e-mail has been sent for clarification since there is no interp citation of either a NCAA rules person nor a cite that it comes from MLB.
Will post (or JJ will) when an answer comes in. This is interesting since according to the study guide another base runner cannot physically assist while on the base paths. Hopefully this is not the authors own interp and we can track down the origin. Otherwise we are still where we are now........ Its unusual that an interp in this book is not cited by either a NCAA person or MLB.

Jim Paronto (NCAA) and Kyle McNeely (FED) both came back in agreement with the MLB call of out. Since the runner who scored is no longer considered a runner and he clearly assisted a runner who was making no attempt to return home, the runner is out for assistance.

JJ

BretMan · #10 (**permalink**) Tue Aug 31, 2010, 10:56am

Quote:

Originally Posted by BSUmp16

I know this softball video was the defense assisting the offense, but what I was trying to highlight was that the reason the defense carried the runner was because the umpires had (according to the video) ruled that if a member of the offense had assisted the runner, the runner would be out, which is what the original post was about. Anyhow, according to greymule ASA would have ruled Morgan out when he was assisted back to the plate. Does Hernandez do ASA too?

Not to veer too far off into the "big ball" game, but...

That video made the rounds a couple of years ago, along with accolades for the defensive team for their display of good sportsmanship. But if it wasn't for the umpires blowing a simple rule, the whole thing never would of happened.

They initially told the coaches that the injured runner could not have a substitute to complete her baserunning award on the home run. That is completely wrong under NCAA rules and a sub should have been allowed.

Instead, they forced an injured player to be jostled around the bases, possibly aggrivating the injury and causing further harm to the player. Sure, it made for a nice touchy-feely heartwarming tale of sportsmanship on the part of the opponents, but it was a totally unecessary display resulting from a gross umpire error.

BSUmp16 · #11 (**permalink**) Tue Aug 31, 2010, 09:03pm

According to the video, the umpires gave the B/R the "pinch runner" option but the B/R rejected that option because then she would not have been given credit for the HR (only a single). The HR was her first and only of her career. So it's not quite fair to blame the umps for this decision. They told the B/R her options and she chose to be jostled around the bases.