F8 carries ball over fence
 

Situation; Palomino game (OBR). B4 hits ball to the left of F8. Ball bounces, F8 gloves the ball on 1st bounce, proceeds to run into the fence and flips over the fence with ball in glove. B4 was at 1B when F8 went over the fence. Where do you place B4? We put him on 3rd. I've consulted other umps. Some say 3rd ...others say 2nd.

Are Fed & OBR rules the same in this situation?

I'm probably wrong here but my gut tells me that whether or not the fielder left the field of play isn't relevant. The ball leaving the field is revelant.
I would probably look at:


7.04c Each runner, other than the batter, may without liability to be put out, advance one base when a fielder, after catching a fly ball, falls into a bench or stand, or falls across ropes into a crowd when spectators are on the field; A fielder or catcher may reach or step into, or go into the dugout with one or both feet to make a catch, and if he holds the ball, the catch shall be allowed. Ball is in play. If the fielder or catcher, after having made a legal catch, should fall into a stand or among spectators or into the dugout after making a legal catch.


7.05g Each runner including the batter runner may, without liability to be put out, advance two bases when, with no spectators on the playing field, a thrown ball goes into the stands, or into a bench (whether or not the ball rebounds into the field), or over or under or through a field fence... The ball is dead. When such wild throw is the first play by an infielder, the umpire, in awarding such bases, shall be governed by the position of the runners at the time the ball was pitched; in all other cases the umpire shall be governed by the position of the runners at the time the wild throw was made.

I realize neither of those address your specific situation (because the ball was neither caught nor thrown), but I'd start there.

Doesn't one of the interps (MLBUM?) indicate that a thrown / bounding ball is treated the same as a caught ball in this respect?

Sorry, I'm away from all my reference material right now.

OK guys, we had a couple of "rookie" umps, (me & partner...dangerous situation...LOL). We discussed it and and came up with 2-bases from TOT (there doesn't need to be a throw to enforce this, I've been told) Not being sure if we made the right call, I've asked my mentor and other experienced umpires.

My only consultation in this is that they are split 50/50 on if B4 is placed at 2nd or 3rd.

Nobody else on the field had a clue, so they had to buy whatever our 2-man crew of "rookie" umps were selling!!:rolleyes: Brief explanation, and the game played on.

Once the ball is secured in the glove, it is no longer a batted ball and the rules governing base awards associated with batted balls are irrelevant.

7.04(c), one base after fielder makes a legal catch on a fly ball, and falls into DBT, is also irrelevant due to the fact that F8 did not make a legal catch on a fly ball.

This situation is treated the same as a thrown ball going out of play. Same when a fielder goes into the stands or dugout after gaining possession on a thrown ball. ie F2 backing up first base. Award is two bases time of entry into DBT.

Runner should be awarded third if he had attained first at the time of the fileder leaving the field of play.

Did the fielder fall down in DBT? If he remained standing and didn't drop the ball, the ball should remain in play in OBR, shouldn't it? (Or was that changed recently? Added: Yes, in a spectator seating area, he doesn't have to fall. Ball is dead, one base for the runners.) If he had "complete possession," left the field, remained on his feet, and then dropped the ball while in DBT, the MLBUM says two bases from the time the ball was dropped (not the time the ball left the field).

The MLBUM does not seem to cover what happens if the fielder (not after a catch) had complete possession when he left the field and fell into DBT.

I'll see whether the J/R covers the OP specifically.

Once a fielder leaves the field of play, it doesn't matter if he kept his feet or not. On MLB fields, the dugout is usually the only DBT that is within the field of play. That is what the specific rules of falling while in DBT address. On non MLB fields, you may have the white line marking DBT. Home ground rules usually cover what is to happen in different situations concerning this area. Once out of the field of play, all bets are off and the appropriate rules/awards govern.

Rules basis? A batted ball is a batted ball until it becomes something else. This is not yet a thrown ball.

Except that the MLBUM has said the exact opposite since this sitch is not specifically covered in the OBR book.

No. This is not a thrown ball.

Award second.

Although it doesn't matter as far as the result of THIS sitch goes, the rule used depends on whether the fielder gained possession while still on the field. And other runners or a different position of BR WOULD make this matter.

If he did have possession before leaving field of play, treat as a caught ball - 1 base (for everyone) from the time he gained possession - per MLBUM.

If he did NOT, consider the similar situation of a ball in flight caught by a jumping outfielder who falls completely out of play, never landing in the field of play - 4 base award. In our case, ground rule double.

The difference would matter if, for example, if BR had not reached first at the time the fielder got the ball... 1st base in the first case, 2nd base in the 2nd. It could matter also if R1 was stealing and had reached 3rd at the time the fielder got the ball - home in the first case, 3rd in the 2nd case.

On a batted ball if you deem the act of carrying or throwing the ball into DBT to be intentional, then it is two bases at the time of the intentional act otherwise, it is two base from the time of pitch for a batted ball or TOT for a thrown ball.

Rules basis? Not true in the case of a ball in possession (caught by) a fielder. Catch and carry is 1 base from time of entering DBT.

What are referencing in the MLBUM? can't find any basis to support your position at this time.

To quote you "Rules basis?" You say the MLBUM says so but can't give relevant references. Let me know when you have sufficient proof to claim my interp is wrong.

"Once a fielder leaves the field of play, it doesn't matter if he kept his feet or not."

The current OBR book still emphasizes falls into, not just enters DBT. In some MLB parks, it is entirely possible, if unlikely, that a fielder could make a running catch and then leap a fence (though not one of today's outfield fences) and remain standing. Maybe that's why "spectator seating area" was added.

Local, made-up rules are fine, but they are not relevant.

There is DBT (dugout, marked areas on the playing field) and leaving the field of play (over a fence, into spectator areas). Once a ball or player in possession of the ball leaves the field of play, the ball is immediately dead and appropriate awards are given. A fielder cannot make a legal catch then hop into the spectator area and throw from there.

If he did have possession before leaving field of play, treat as a caught ball - 1 base (for everyone) from the time he gained possession - per MLBUM.

Can you cite where the MLBUM covers that? I can't find it in my 2000 edition.

I don't know what your MLBUM says, but mine says "If a fielder has complete possession of a batted or thrown ball and subsequently deflects or kicks the ball out of play, the award is two bases from the position of the runners at the time the ball was kicked or deflected." copyright 2009

A fielder leaving the field of play with possession is the same as deflecting it since it was his impetus that made the ball leave said field of play and become dead.

Yes, my MLBUM says that first part, but it doesn't say, "A fielder leaving the field of play with possession is the same as deflecting it since it was his impetus that made the ball leave said field of play and become dead."

mcrowder cited the MLBUM as instructing "treat as a caught ball," which is quite different.

In the rule book, I can find only "falls into a bench or stand," "falls across ropes into a crowd," "should fall into a stand or among spectators or into the dugout or any other out-of-play area, [my emphasis]" and so on. It seems to me that falls is in all those examples for a reason. I don't see "enters DBT" or "leaves the field of play" anywhere (in OBR). Several case plays indicate that a fielder can indeed carry a ball into DBT and then make a throw.

For what it's worth, I queried "Hal the Referee" of the Cleveland Plain Dealer 30 years ago about a fielder making a catch, leaping a fence, remaining on his feet, and making a throw from "Row F" of the stands. The answer was "Yes, that's legal."

Yes catch and carry is correct if Fed rule, NCAA and OBR is applicable if fielder falls down otherwise, ball is alive.

In the case of a batted ball being INTENTIONALLY deflected or brought into DBT, it is true, for all 3 codes.

In the case of a batted ball being INTENTIONALLY deflected or brought into DBT, it is true, for all 3 codes.

How about for the OP, a non-caught batted ball unintentionally carried into DBT (in Fed) or carried into DBT by a fielder who subsequently falls with it (in OBR/NCAA)?

I did not quote MLBUM on that, hence no "'s around that statement. That is the interpretation I have been taught.

Don't see that quote in the MLBUM.

Again DBT and leaving the field of play are two different situations. You can have DBT within the field of play. Once you leave the field of play, the ball is immediately dead.

No disrespect to "Hal the Referee", but he is wrong. 30 years ago he may have been right, but that is not the case in today's interpretations.

This is an odd hair we're splitting here, don't you think? I understand why the distinction of "falls" vs "stays on his feet" is relevant when entering ON FIELD dbt - such as a dugout. I really don't think (but obviously can't prove since this is not stated either way) the rules writers intended there to be a difference between falling into the stands or over the HR fence and jumping into the stands or over the HR fence, and landing on your feet.

If you contend there's a difference there - I can't argue with you... the rules don't say. But it seems to leave a large grey un-ruled-upon area if that's truly the case. One would think that if they wanted one to be treated differently than the other, they would have not only defined how to treat one - they would have defined both.

Our Catch and Carry example of a caught ball is the only one that's really relevant here. I recognize that two of you are calling me out regarding the exact wording from MLBUM. I know I've read this. However, I'm at work still, books are in the car and at home. I will get back to you on the wording that leads me to say to treat bounce/field/carry the same as catch/carry, and not a throw.

What would your ruling be if F2, after believing there were 3 outs, ran into the dugout with the ball only to find out that there were 2 outs?

I would hope that you would give all base runners 2 bases from the time F2 entered the dugout. This is essentially the same. BR gets 2 bases from time fielder leaves the field.

No self-respecting umpire would call themselves a referee anyway.

I'm wondering if he USED to be right though. I vaguely remember from my youth seeing Enos Cabell do exactly this. I surely don't have the rulebook (or MLBUM!) from 1975ish.

1 base. (and yes, same reasoning as the OP) Why 2?

Heck, if he didn't fall, why give any at all. :rolleyes:

I have tried to spell out the reasoning for the two base awards given different examples. I will bow out and let others banter about. Obviously I am not the one to give you the correct ruling concerning this situation. I wait to see what the real ruling is.

If I am wrong, I will gladly acknowledge it. But I will not take "Hal's" word for it.

From the J/R:

It is an overthrow when . . . (6) a fielder possesses a batted or thrown ball and intentionally enters DBT (the "throw" occurs when he enters DBT).

Note, however, that the J/R does not include unintentional carrying of the ball in its definition of overthrow or distinguish between a caught ball and a mere batted ball.

If F2 wrongly thinks there are 3 outs and carries the ball into the dugout, I guess he intentionally carried it there, even though the rule was designed to prevent an outfielder from falling into the stands intentionally to keep a fast runner on 2B from scoring on a fly ball. Maybe "intentionally and deviously" would be better wording.

I'm having a hard time distinguishing between entering DBT and leaving the field of play. It sounds to me like the same thing.

"Hal the Referee" answered rules questions in all sports, but most of the questions were about baseball. His column was in the Sporting News every week. It probably should have been called, "Hal the Sports Official."

mbcrowder, I wasn't "calling you out." Your statement was credible, and I wanted to know where to find it. Incidentally, "treat as" sounds like BRD language. I'm going to look there.

But I will not take "Hal's" word for it.

I think that by now Hal has gone to that great ballpark in the sky.

How about it?

Was it intentional? No ? Two bases from the TOP.

From Evans: Professional Interpretation: [after a legal catch] . . .

The player may throw from a dead ball territory and complete a play provided he has not fallen in the dead ball territory (e.g., dugout, stands, photographers' pit).

From the BRD:

If a fielder after making a catch enters DBT, the ball remains alive unless the fielder falls down.

But:

If a fielder, in making a catch, enters a spectator area due to his momentum, the ball is dead and all runners are awarded one base, regardless of whether the fielder has fallen or remains standing.

(What if the fielder enters "stands" that are empty of "spectators"?)

Evans cites 1950 as the time the rule was established, but he does not mention the exception for the "spectator area" (mentioned in J/R and BRD), which I did remember as having come much later. But I can't find anything in any of the books about an uncaught batted ball. Every example of unintentional entering of DBT deals with "after a catch."

However, the BRD does mention intentional carrying into DBT of merely a "batted ball" as causing a two-base award (from time of entering DBT). If unintentional carrying was the same two-base award, would that not be included in that section?

I agree. The OP counts as a kind of "overthrow," even though it's not among the examples given in J/R, Chapter 8. The award is 2 bases from the time the ball went out of play. Keep it simple.

J/R gives 6 EXAMPLES of overthrows -- those are not DEFINITIONS. The defense caused a ball that was no longer a batted ball to leave live ball territory. That's the definition of an overthrow, and so the rules pertaining to overthrows (2 bases from TOT) apply.

We're used to "catch and carry," which is a kind of exception to the overthrow rule. The rationale for the exception is that, since the defense caught the batted ball, the runners would have to retouch before advancing. That's why they get just one base for catch and carry.

In the OP, we did NOT have a catch, so the exception would not apply.

J/R gives 6 EXAMPLES of overthrows -- those are not DEFINITIONS.

I agree that they are not official definitions. (In fact, overthrow is not defined in the OBR book, so I guess there isn't an official definition.) However, the J/R presents the 6 categories as if all overthrows fall into one of them. If there are other kinds, the J/R should be clear that the 6 are merely examples and do not encompass all overthrows.

I can't quarrel with your reasoning to award two bases by interpreting the OP as "a kind of overthrow." But lacking something in black and white, one could also reasonably judge the OP to be a "kind of catch and carry."

They are not 6 categories of overthrow, or they would be labeled as such.

It can't possibly be a "kind of catch and carry" because it's not a catch. That's crucial, since the basis for the exception to the overthrow award is the fact that the runners must retouch after a catch.

They are not 6 categories of overthrow, or they would be labeled as such.

Well, they're 6 types of overthrow, but they're not labeled as examples, either. They certainly could be examples, but it's not fully clear. If I were editing the J/R, it would say, "Some examples of overthrows follow."

Note that with altered bats, the J/R introduces its list with "Examples of altered bats include bats that are:" . . .

But for foul balls, it reads:

"It is a foul ball if a batted ball:" . . .

and then lists 7 categories that cover every kind of foul ball. (The J/R even includes "is touched by the batter in his batter's box, which is not in the official book definition). It doesn't specifically say that all foul balls fall into one of the 7 categories, but they do. These are not just examples of foul balls.

I don't expect rule books to be written like law books, and I can accept that the play in the OP is considered an "overthrow." I'm just saying that the books don't cover it unequivocally.

Agreed. Good examples. ;)