Little League - grounds for forfeit
 

OK, I am a basketball and football official, and have no experience officiating baseball. So I am coming at this from a parent standpoint.

During my sons recent 10 year old LL game, he pitched in the 1st inning, then

A) Played another position the 2nd inning, or
B) Sat the second inning.

I don't recall which, but I think he played another position.

Then he pitched in the third inning. This was planned by the coaches, they try to get everyone playing difference positions, so they plan out the shuffle pre-game. So my son was planned to pitch the 1/3/6 innings, with another kid pitching 2/5 and another kid pitching 4. Could jsut as easily done 1/2, 3/4, 6 of course.

So, apparently it turns out this is against the rules - a pitcher is not allowed to pitch in non-consecutive innings. Fair enough - the coaches screwed up.

My question is - is this actually grounds for appealing the game, and then having the game be forfeit on the basis that the pitcher should not have been allowed to pitch in the 3rd inning?

How much discretion is typical when it comes to a decision by tournament officials to force a team to forfeit a game? Is tic cut and dried - you broke the rule, so you MUST forfeit, or is there some judgment involved?

My sons team won the game by a handy margin, and the other coaches went to the board or whatever, and we just found out that the game would be forfeit as a result of the illegal pitching.

To my admittedly biased and largely uninformed mind, this seems like a rather drastic reaction to an honest mistake that really had no bearing on the outcome of the game. Nobody complained at the time, nobody brought up up to a tournament director when my son went back in in the third, nobody said anything...until we find out that we have forfeited the game.

What you described was using an illegal pitcher, and can draw a forfeit.

The manager should have known better. So should all his coaches.

The plate umpire should have caught this.

The other manager should have pointed it out beforehand.

The scorekeeper should have pointed it out.

Man, there's a lot of blame to spread around here. The adults really goofed it up for the kids, hunh? Berkut, you're manager needs a good swift kick for not knowing this elementary rule, as should all of the above adults. Throw in the folks who put him in charge, too. Yow, how does this even happen?

Well, the managers are just some parents who volunteer to coach. Yeah, they probably should have known better, but they didn't. I guess they do now.

I am just rather surprised that 10 year old LL baseball is such serious business that a trivial mistake like this warrants some adults appealing a game and getting a forfeit win out of it.

LL Tournament Rules 4c. Pitchers once removed from the mound may not return as pitchers.

And the proper way to protest the violation along with the penalty:

B.
The use of an ineligible pitcher;
Ineligibility under this rule applies to violations of Tournament Playing
Rule 4. If an ineligible pitcher delivers one or more pitches to a batter,
that game may be subject to protest and action by the Tournament Committee
in Williamsport, subject to the following conditions:
T-12
1. At any time before the umpire(s) leave the playing field, a formal
(verbal) protest must be made to the umpire-in-chief by the manager
or coach.
2. The umpire-in-chief must immediately consult with the Tournament
Director or District Administrator.
3. Either the umpire-in-chief, Tournament Director or District Administrator
will call the Regional Headquarters at this time.
4. The Regional Director (or his/her designated agent) will contact the
Tournament Committee in Williamsport. The decision of the Tournament
Committee shall be final and binding. NOTE: The Manager is
responsible for verifying the accuracy of the pitching record on the
eligibility affidavit.

Without knowing all the details(when the protest happened, etc.), it is hard to say. The protest should have happened immediately after the game before the umpires left the field and the decision would have come from the Region HQ. We had 2 protests in our District tournament this year(1 MPR, 1 Ineligible pitcher (she pitched 1 pitch in her 8th inning)), but neither resulted in a forfeit-just manager ejections and suspensions.

You are a Football and Basketball official and you find this surprising in today's sports world? Come on now! This was a tournment not a family picnic baseball game. And this mentality is not limited to baseball either.

All I can say is welcome to parenthood and do your best to keep your son as level headed as you are. Too many people nowdays think sports is a way of life, not just a game.

Hehe, good point. Lord knows this is hardly limited to baseball by any means.

Interesting - I don't really know more details, as the information I have comes from the coaches - but I was at the game, it was my son who pitched that third inning, and certainly I do not recall anyone saying anything about it at the time - but after the game could be possible.

I certainly do not think this went beyond the immediate organizers though - unless I am mistaken. Maybe they decided to avoid "manager ejections and suspensions" by just agreeing to the forfeit or something?

I wasn't there but in our District tournament we had a catcher go to pitcher illegally. It was caught by the scorekeeper after 1 pitch. (They get busy sometimes). The local tournament personnel thought it was an illegal pitcher and called Waco for the forfeit ( I would have thought the same thing). Waco said that that was treated as an illegal sub and change him out. Only Williamsport can forfeit. Make a phone call. You might have been sandbagged by the local guys or they were untrained as were your coaches. Not pointing fingers because the LL tournament process requires a lot of work from people who may not have the time to digest all the finer points.

+1. In 1 of our protests(MP violation), the coach protested and the offending coach admitted when questioned the kid didn't bat. The umpires told the coach he was out for 2 games and were headed for the exit when the TD stepped in. They made the call to Region and the suspension was issued.

The Region or above must issue penalties and decisions on protests involving ineligible players and MP from my experience. All that to say-even though everyone knows what will happen, it must come from above.

From what I have learned, the only thing that can be issued at the local level is a suspension due to behavior.

And as kylejt said, it is EVERYONE'S responsibility to prevent an ineligible player from playing-manager, scorekeeper, umpire, opposing manager. How did no one notice this happening?

[QUOTE]IMO, MAJOR problem in youth sports. This is 10 yr. old baseball WHO CARES who wins.

no matter what sport at that age it should be about teaching / developing NOT who wins and loses.

It's the ADULTS who filed the protest to win a GAME in which they got drilled.


What ever happened to the good ole days of pick-up games where we made up our own rules / no umpires / no coaches and simply played.

Pete Booth

So, at the game last night, we found out that what happened was this.

The best team in the tournament (call them Team A), during the first game (they beat us handily) had their pitchers play split innings, because they didn't know it was against the rules. Apparently our coaches thought "Hey, that seems like a good idea, give the pitchers some rest between pitching" so they thought they would try it.

So now it turns out that the team that just appealed our game (Team B), and got themselves a win, are also appealing the game against Team A as well. Of course, they did not know it was illegal either at the time of the game, and did not protest at the time of their game against Team A. But hey, they got the forfeit against us even though they didn't protest at the time, so why not? That will improve their overall record from 1-5 to 3-3! Not bad!

Of course some of the other parents on our team are now asking why WE don't appeal our game against Team A, since apparently they broke the same rule. I was very proud of our coaches when they said that Team A beat us because their kids played better, not because of some pitching subs, and there was no way they are interested in or would accept a forfeit win under those circumstances.

Sigh. Such serious business it all is...

I just hope we get to play Team B in the playoffs...

Rather than claiming ignorance, why don't you/they ask before you do something like that. If nobody's ever done it before, in baseball, chances are it's illegal, not some new idea that nobody's thought of.

Better idea: Play team Z FOR FUN and have a good time. After the game let the kids swim and have a barbecue

FWIW Ask the KIDS what they want.

hey guys we can play an INTENSE game OR

we can go to the local park play against team Z for fun and THEN go swimming and have a barbecue

In the scheme of things is it really that BIG of deal to beat team B?

Youth Sports is simply OUT OF CONTROL

Pete Booth

Tournament? Playoffs coming up? Just what situation are we discussing here?

And BTW, how could two different coach groups go through an entire season and not know pitchers can't return. It's in the rule book in more than one place (Reg VI(b), 3.03(3), and T-Rule 4(c)).

There you have it! The Little League system of youth baseball is the reason that America produces an ever-declining number of professional ballplayers.

Well, lets not over-state things. The kids are having a good time regardless.

And no, in the scheme of things it isn't a big deal to beat Team B at all. but that doesn't mean I won't enjoy it if the kids do so anyway.

Heck, in the scheme of things the ONLY thing that is a "big deal" is that the kids have fun, and hopefully learn something. I think they will learn a lot from the entire thing, and maybe the parents will too...

[QUOTE=Rich Ives;685636]Tournament? Playoffs coming up? Just what situation are we discussing here?
[quote]

Uhhh, I don't know, really - my kid has only been playing baseball for 2 years, so I am not sure how all this works.

He played on the local 10-11 year old LL team earlier this year. Then he was selected after that "season" ended to play on the 10-11 year old post-season team made up of players from the 8 or so teams that played in the local "regular season" that plays in this "tournament" with teams from around the area. They play 6 more games, which seeds them for a actual elimination-type tournament. I *think* but am not at all certain, that this feeds somehow into the LL regionals or something like that? No idea, really.

Never underestimate the ability of a group of people to all be wrong together. It is quite impressive, really. Hell, I've sat in a locker room after a football game with 4 other experienced officials wondering how we ALL managed to screw up some rules interpretation that in hindsight seems rather obvious.

They screwed up. The more I learn, the more I think that the process for resolving that screw up was pretty much ignored and screwed up even more. But at the end of the day, it was their mistake, and they are willing to accept the consequences, and move on.

Like someone said earlier - the kids mostly don't care. Some disappointment that they didn't get a win they thought they had, but they are playing anyway, so oh well.

And Ripken, Dixie, PONY, the Independents? Do they hire pro coaches?

Many if not most youth organizations use volunteer coaches. The same for travel teams only many of them are a little better at knowing baseball than a rec league coach.

Just b/c a coach/umpire is a volunteer doesn't mean they are a bad coach/umpire. That is a very bad stereotype. Not all paid umpires/coaches are very good.

As usual, my point is missed. You figure out the reason.

Perhaps if someone else made the same point, it would be understood?

Anyone?

It wasn't really missed. And nope. I would have zinged 'someone else' too. I get really really tired of people saying "Little League" is screwed up as if it were the only thing out there, some with an implication that everyting else is OK. In fact, they have less than half of the local youth baseball organizations. At the time of the date change they were claiming 40%.

While I do miss many of your points, my guess is how the poster worded his statement. "Well, the managers are just some parents who volunteer to coach." Implying that just b/c they are volunteers, they don't know anything. And, seems as though it is giving an excuse of why they didn't know the rules.

This is my guess and may be off the mark. But, I think I might be close this time. :D

I don't think it was a direct attack against LL. That is just what the OP is about. I think he is saying LL isn't the problem. It is the parents and the kids' lack of desire to play baseball. Many parents force their kids to play rather than giving the kids a choice. And, getting out there and encouraging their kids.

So many drop their kids off and leave. I know some have jobs to prevent them from participating as much as they want to. But, there are those few who use sports and coaches as a babysitter while they have "better things to do".

Also, how the coaches do not do their job and actually learn the game while they are suppose to be teaching it to the players.

It was an attack on society in general. Not LL.

Again, I may have missed the mark. I never know with Finnerty.

We had a similar situation a few years ago. My kids' team was making a comeback on a team in the last inning against a lesser pitcher. The other teams' coach decided to take that kid out and re-insert his ace who had pitched the first inning (you play to win the game, right?).

I rarely take kids off the mound during an inning unless they are hurt. That league has a 5 run limit and I figure they can take their lumps and learn from it. Not the other coach, he wanted a win.

When I gently pointed out that you can't re-insert at pitcher their assistant threw a fit. Eventually the PU dug the rules out and said, yep, you can't re-insert at pitcher.

The pitcher (a little kid at that) went on to get the two last outs including snagging a ball hit up the middle destined to a hit and threw the runner out to end it.

Probably the highlight of the kid's career and the coaches almost ruined it for him. The head coach from the other team actually called me later that night and apologized for his behavior. I told him that I was happy for his pitcher and glad it worked out. Even if we lost the game.

Sometimes the adults DO get it right.

Meh, I actually think his current coaches are outstanding. Not making excuses for them per se, just acknowledging that they are just people like me, and the only difference is they are willing to put in a huge amount of time and effort to teach kids, and hence I am not going to get too worked up over them missing something like this.

I am not implying that they do not know anything - clearly they know a lot more about teaching kids baseball than I do - but I am saying that they are not people who have the luxury of being able to spend a huge amount of time making sure they understand the nuances of the rules. So mistakes happen. They ahve taken ownership of their mistake and the consequence of it admirably, IMO.

Highly unlikely

Pete Booth

Maybe it should be highlighted this way: "Well, the managers are just some parents who volunteer to coach."

It's the parents part, folks! Good Christ, there are volunteer coaches at D-I universities, who are some of the best coaches who ever walked on a diamond!

It's a system that is designed to produce mediocre results. When a player arrives at his first day of high school practice with a Little League background, he is behind, with little likelihood of catching up.

And I guess I could placate everyone who takes offense at that reality, but then, I can't figure out quite how to word the sing-song portrayal. I'm better with the truth.

Let me try anyway: If you have a son who loves baseball and would like to play it even as far as high school, and perhaps even college, then Little League is a wonderful place to start. Scores and scores of young players spring from the Little League ranks and pepper college and professional rosters just as they always have.

(Sorry, I need to go wash my shoes.)

Freakin' off the hook
 

Sorry,

Excuse me for having an opinion (deleted)

Your previous actions have obviated your right to have (or at least to express) any such opinions.

Behind compared to what though?

Principally PONY, but also travel ball and the other stuff that springs from those programs. Whatever the league affiliation, it is critical that a young player learn base running and pitching with runners on base way before he is 13. Playing in a ballpark with realistic outfield fence distances also is a critical element.

I'm from Southern California. Here, Little League players have little chance of being a high school player, and no chance at all at a competitive high school. It's been that way around here for about a dozen years, now. And it is becoming that way most everywhere.

I have literally seen one Little Leaguer make it at a competitive local high school. He was the ace on the Thousand Oaks team that won Williamsport. He didn't start until he was a senior, and only made it at all because he was a left-handed pitcher.

I'm sorry that's the way it is, but it's just the way it works these years.

Rich, you're making a huge assumption that coaches actually read the rule book.

Having dealt with coaches for close to 40 years - they almost always read the pitching and sub rules because they know they need to know them. It's the other 998 rules they don't read.

A little further down the 5, it's a different story. LL is King, and PONY is it's slow, drooling little brother. Our town is sandwiched between two PONY bergs, that get the beat down from our high school teams year after year. Nearly every player on the two HS teams are LL products.

I think the real difference it the quality of the coaches teaching the game. I've umpired in the surrounding PONY leagues, and it's just not there, for whatever reason. They're just not savvy.

I truly believe that good coaching is passed down year to year within a league, no matter the affiliation.

Sorry Kevin, as well as your examples for S. Calif. may support your threads here, I don't believe it is indicative of the entire HS, College or Pro community.

Good talent does not always begin at 11, 12 or 13 and High School is certainly not the only judge of good talent in a ballplayers career.

Your supporting facts may or may not be true for where you live but, I don't believe it is for all areas. JMO

WHY?

It's maybe two days of practice to teach that stuff.

Mistake not trivial. If you think this trivial save some money and don't hire umpires. Just get the parents to call 'em from the bleachers and see how that works out.

The board only gets the appeals. Shame on the blues for not allowing this to happen.

May or may not be true? I've been involved in this in several capacities for an extended period all over Southern California.

Maybe if I highlight the keywords, my message will be more clear:

That speaks to the quality of LL coaching.

Back in the days when a computer took up its own room, our Babe Ruth coach spent much more time coaching these critical parts of the game. Perhaps surprisingly to you, high school and college coaches continued our education in these areas. Maybe someone should have told them that it takes maybe two days. It would have saved us a lot of work.

I'd say it was half a season of LL Juniors to get them up to speed on the open bases. But most good LL players are also playing travel ball in the offseason, so there's usually no problems at all.

Kevin, your begining to sound like a New Yorker. They believe that the world is not flat or round. It just doesn't exist outside the city limits of New York.

So let me highlite the key words for you!

So.California represents approximately 1.4% of the United States in area and 3.5 % in population.

In the last statistics course I took, these numbers hardly justify being represenative for the norm.

But as a resident of So. Cal. if you wish to believe otherwise, Happy Birthday to you.

They also supply a disproportionate amount of better baseball players, as does Florida and the Dominican Republic.

What baserunning skills are different? All the other stuff is the same in both worlds.

1) How to lead off and not get picked off doing it.

2) ????

3) ????

4) ????

Oh, you misunderstand me. I recognize your authority as an expert on teaching pitching techniques with runners on base and base running in two days. I'm forwarding your name to several college and MiLB teams so they can just spend two days on that in training camp.:rolleyes:

Then again, perhaps some facts may support a personal opinion. The statement has been made that the LL program no longer produces the majority of the high school players in S. Calif, and in other parts of the country. True! It has been admitted that LL represents less than half of the youth baseball programs in the country.

But how does less than half fall to almost no one from a LL program makes it to high school ball in S Calif, unless they happen to be the star pitcher on a LLWS championship team? Highly interesting, but very doubtful.

I am still confused as to what it is about these other programs that make such better ballplayers?

Do they have professional coaches or something? What?

And you somehow think it's a totally different ball game.

So - just what is it about baserunning that's different - except the actual lead-off? Don't be shy - teach me somethng so I'll shut up.

Does how to throw a pitch change with a baserunner? When may change, but not how. But as coaches call the pitches anyhow there's nothing to teach the pitcher/catcher yet.

Did you know most of the throw-overs are called friom the bench - even in MLB?

Is "set" somehow totally different than wind-up? Do you go to a different balance point? Do you throw with the other hand? Keep up with the lessons - I'd appreciate it if someone as wise as you could improve mu knowledge base.

No time for LL practice
 

The local LL district can't compete against Mom's desire to see her son playing against "better" competition, 10 year olds recruited to join select travel teams, and enticements of pro-ball or college scholarships (real or imaginary). Money is thrown into baseball factories {many in Southern Calif and Florida}, and travel teams going to week long, out-of-state, big-city tournaments. Now kids in S Calif who grew up playing baseball for large fees usually make the local high school team.

What does this mean to the shortage of poor inner city kids who play baseball on the LL sand lot? Apparently, opinion has determined that the LL kids cut from the local high school team can be traced back to the poor quality of "volunteer" LL programs. Imagine the difficulty in learning to make the adjustment from the wind-up to the stretch.

I'm not arguing with you. You are undoubtedly more experienced and smarter than my high school and college coaches were. They both had us working on these issues repeatedly over the course of pre-season training. They took many days to do what you can in two.

If you've proven anything during your time here, (aside from being the smartest coach in baseball) it's that this is not very likely.

They DO more w/ the MONEY?
 

Four advantages 1) the business of making money {ala the league sponsor}, 2) parents who spend lots of money on their "kids" happiness, 3) a competitive "lure" that gaining an edge or shortcut will lead to a WIN over someone else that is well worth it, and 4) the knowledge that no one will investigate or care about the scandalous price or means of victory.

Why hell, just take a look at these four advantages I listed above and compare them to the current University of Southern California football program. Apply the same concepts to any team sport.

Grounds for forfeit
 

My apologies for going off-topic during my previous two rants about the quality of LL baseball above. One last comment about the original thread.

Your telling me your son entered a baseball game as the starting pitcher, then re-entered the same baseball game as one of the middle-relief pitchers, and finally re-re-entered the same baseball game as the closing pitcher and you do not find anything wrong with it?

Wait you know there is something wrong with it, but you feel that the mistake your coach made should have been explained or corrected by the umpires on the field because it may potentially cost your team a victory, and that a protest by the other team to the tournament committee was unnecessary?

Wait, you realize the umpires and your coaches are all dumb and that the opposing team's protest was necessary, but you actually believe these same events went unnoticed in another ballgame in the same tournament, so that the ruling committee should support your decision to throw out the protest?

Shhssssh!

No, he entered the game as the starting pitcher, then he played outfield the second inning, then pitched the third inning, then player 1st base, then sat, then played...short stop?

I dunno. And no, at the time is seemed unusual, but they move kids around all the time from position to position, so it didn't seem all that odd. But really, how is *my* finding anything wrong or not relevant? I am just a parent, I have no idea what the sub rules are (or didn't at the time).

I think the mistake the coach made was pretty minor, and did not warrant a game being forfeit. No more or less. I do think if that is the rule, the umpires should know about it, and further, I think that even given that it is a rule, it is a pretty petty thing to go get a forfeit over.

Support my decision? It isn't my decision, what are you talking about?

And no, the fact that it happened in another game is not really germane, except to the point that it is pretty clear that lots of people are apparently not aware of the rules, and that is people who SHOULD be aware.

I don't think you can find anywhere in this thread where I have made any of the arguments you have ascribed to me, and I am rather baffled at the hostility - did I step into the middle of something else?

Here is what I do think:

1. The error was minor, and had no effect on the outcomes of the game.
2. Given that, it seemed to me that the penalty, foreiture, was excessive.
3. Now, finding out that the process that should have been followed was clearly NOT followed, it bothers me even more that they are going to be extremely anal about enforcing one rule, while at the same time they ignore a bunch of other rules about the process of appeal/protest.

But really, it is all water under the bridge now. The issue is dead, and who cares anymore?

Approx. 12-13%, I agree. which is probably more proportional to the population than than the fact of whether a kid played LL or not.

Listen we can both argue statistics until were blue in the face, I am just saying that what is typical in So. Cal. doesn't necessarly hold true for the rest of the country.

Here is my exact answer the last time you expressed confusion:

Why is this so hard to understand? And you know what, the elite travel teams have professional coaches, yes. And they also have some pretty impressive facilities.

And the reason Southern California is such a hotbed is tied to three main factors: weather, large population and a high concentration of great D-I baseball schools.

LL speak?
 

Compare this to LL Pitching regulations
"(b) Junior, Senior, and Big League Divisions only: A pitcher remaining in the game, but moving to a different position, can return as a pitcher anytime in the remainder of the game, but only once per game.
(g) The official pitch count recorder should inform the umpire-in-chief when a pitcher has delivered his/her maximum limit of pitches for the game, as noted in Regulation VI (c). The umpire-in-chief will inform the pitcher’s manager that the pitcher must be removed in accordance with Regulation VI (c). However, the failure by the pitch count recorder to notify the umpire-in-chief, and/or the failure of the umpire-in-chief to notify the manager, does not relieve the manager of his/her responsibility to remove a pitcher when that pitcher is no longer eligible.
(h) Violation of any section of this regulation can result in protest of the game in which it occurs. Protest shall be made in accordance with Playing Rule 4.19."

http://blogs.rep-am.com/strikezone/f...tion-Guide.pdf

BTW, b, bold g and h have been in the books for well over 40 years.

And this is a joke or a respectable point of view? You tell me.

Have you noticed that baseball is a competitive and extremely high-paying profession? Why is it that you think we'll somehow compete with the countries who make a dedicated effort at training ballplayers by allowing our ballplayers to be trained at the snail's pace that Little League offers? And why do you mock those who make that effort at competing in this richly rewarding profession, which can also land a youngster in a fine university in which to gain his education?

When a young man has the training to play the game of baseball, he is in daily pursuit of a sound mind and sound body that is required of a pro ballplayer. Well, irrespective of whether he makes it to the big leagues, he can play it perhaps in D-I, and the lower pro ranks into his mid-20s, when his fit mind is capable of making sound choices, and his fit body will help him lead a more rewarding life.

Why do you mock people who make the necessary effort and expense to train their son for this kind of life? Some of these kids truly love the game, and if they're properly trained at an early enough age, they can go all the way to the top or close to it. Those kids should know that their only hope is to be trained to play the actual game at an earlier age. Little League and your rosy approach is perfectly fine for the ones that will be finished playing at 12 or 13.

LLB is to AKC as select ball is to puppy mill
 

No need to repeat what has already been stated twice. "Show me the money first" fits the select travel league mentality. Money is a decisive factor select travel teams cannot do without, not population, nor weather, nor D-I colleges.
Why do you blame LL for the failure of your superior select travel league, NCAA college ball, the MiLB farm clubs and MLB to place an American team in the WBC final? BTW, what percentage of WBC players played 8-12 year old LL ball?
How can Italy and the Netherlands each match the resources of MLB? BTW, the L-astros could use the pitching I saw on TV when Australia, Canada, Italy, the Netherlands and South Africa make it into the WBC with the help of a few 2nd rate American players.

Why do I blame LL Baseball for for the failure of our superior select travel league, NCAA college ball, the MiLB farm clubs and MLB to place an American team in the WBC final? W ... T ... F ??

I get it.

I've been suckered into an exchange with you, like you are a reasonable, rational person, who uses logic and cogent analysis in your arguments.

You got me.

[I hope he lets us know when his mind returns from wherever it is traveling.]

Baseball is extemely high paying - IF you're one of the top ten or so on a team.

300 extremely high paying jobes in MLB.

5,000,000 (probably more) or so kids in 12U around the world.

Really good odds- yes?

But any coach who is responsible for teaching the rules should be aware of this quite simple rule. If the coach doesn't know this, what else doesn't he know? A coach won't know ALL the rules... but he should know the routine ones. And you wonder why we say LL has inferior coaches?

Fortunately ... (or unfortunately for your team) it's not up to you. You think it ... so what. This is NOT a minor mistake. You don't think there's a significant advantage in letting a kid rest that long between innings pitched? You're nuts. You don't think there's a significant chance at long-term damage from having a kid pitch hard, then not pitch, then pitch again, then not, then again? Again, you're nuts. there are reasons for these rules... and reasons the penalty is what it is. This is not "petty" at all.

1. Way wrong, on both counts. 2) First off, the penalty is KNOWN, and not subject to your opinion... second, it's entirely appropriate.
3) You have a point there, and I recommend you pursue it.

Bashing LL baseball training?
 

US Little League Champions
CA 14 (76-79, 91-94)
FL 6
GA, HI 3
AZ, IN, TX 2
AL, CT, KY, RI, NJ, PA, WA 1

Expected correlation matches your statement. Winning has nothing to do with weather, population, or D1 schools. The LL ball is topnotch here and teams do well in playoffs. It is good experience for an umpire. Last year McCallister Park next door went to the show.

Meh, at this point winning the dispute is considerably worse than doing nothing and letting it go.

My point through all this was trying to find out if in fact that penalty (forefeiture of the game) was the "norm" for this kind of violation. The impression I got from most posters was that it was not at all typical. Now I hear from you that it IS typical, and indeed is in fact the normal response.

I don't really care to defend whether or not I am "nuts" or not, mostly I think I am just ignorant. Which is, luckily, considerably more treatable at least.

So - is this simply the normal response to the infraction? You used an illegal pitcher, you forfeit the game?

If this was a LL postseason tournament goverened under the T rules in the back of the LL Green Book then no this was not normal or the correct response to this infraction. Only the tournament comittee in Williamsport can forfeit a game and for an illegal pitcher the normal response would be suspension of the manager since they do not want the kids to pay for the managers incompetence ( or his lack of time, training to understand the postseason rules ). This actually might be jugded an improper sub in which case there is no penalty. Egregious violations might cause a forfeit but Williamsport still must issue it. I don't know if you were in a LL post season tournament covered under the T pages rules. If you were the tournament officials and your coaches were poorly served by whoever was in charge. Whoever was in charge might have been poorly served by whoever put them in charge.

Thanks for the response, I appreciate it.