Timing play or not?
 

FED rules, runners on 1st and 3rd, 1 out. Fly ball to deep center field. R3 tags and scores, R1 goes halfway to 2B and gets thrown out at 1st after R3 has scored.

Does the run count?

etn_ump,

It is a time play.

If the R3 scores before the R1 is put out on a retouch appeal at 1B, the run scores.

If the R1 is put out first, the R3's run does not score.

There are only three situations with a 3rd out that are NOT time plays - everything else IS.

They are:

1. BR is retired before safely touching 1B. (4.09(a) Ex. 1)

2. A forced runner is retired while he is still forced. (4.09(a) Ex. 2)

3. A preceding runner is retired on appeal after following runner(s) have scored. (7.12)

JM

Was R1 forced back to first? Does the play meet any of the other exceptions in 4.09?

You guys are being gentle with someone with these credentials:

T.S.S.A.A. - Tennessee Secondary School Athletic Association
T.C.U.A. - Tennessee Collegiate Umpires Association

Easy Jim.

We ruled correctly, just wanted rules citations for future references.

Sorry I asked.

I think the question was asked because your OP did not state rules citations and it was asked similar to that of a rookie.
It is a time play and the run scores - simple as that. With your posted credentials, I would think that this would be an easy 1-2-3 decision for you. But if you want rule references, I would suggest with your posted credentials, you should dig out your rulebooks and look for yourself. Seeing as how this was FED, you also might want to refer to the FED casebook. I'm sure with your posted credentials, you have one of those buried in your equipment bag. Why not post the rules you find and the casebook references for those of us who have no posted credentials so we can become smart, too!

The point is if you're a college umpire, and don't know that simple rule, there's a problem.

Something else one would expect of a college umpire:

The correct term is "time play" not timing play.

I know lots of college umpires who get that wrong.

I know several college umpires who shouldn't be doing college games, but their "A" job has a flexible schedule so they get the games. Certainly, many of the guys who do the college ball in our area are very good and very qualified. But I know many excellent umpires who can't do college because of their job.

No comment on the OP. I think regardless of the guy's credentials, he deserves a fair answer to his question, not picking him apart because of what we read in his signature.

I've heard a lot of quality instructors say "timing", as that makes the most grammatical sense. As in it's a matter of timing, not time. What happens first, as opposed to where the hands of the clock are.

It may even be a regional thing. Like supper.

You need to hang out with a better class of umpires:D.

Have you ever heard it called a timing play by instructors or owners at proschool?

No, it's a matter of time.

Yes, and much worse.

Incredible.

I went to JEAPU and the Jim and his instructors never referred to it as anything but a time play. And they corrected students who said timing play.

It has stuck with me since.

Glad you got it right, hope you have read the offered citations. Your credentials cause me to be surprised that you don't know this most basic principle. But, maybe I'm expecting too much. I believe the pros blew a time play last year so you got it right without knowing why. Anyone else remember a time play gone wrong in MLB. (I typed timing twice in the previous sentences and caught my mistake).

There was one involving Cleveland a while back where they added the run back on the board later in the game.

They also stubbornly refuse to use the terms A, B, C, and D as base umpire positions on the field, so I guess we should never use those either.

Grammatically, a case could be made for either time or timing, but the former is the baseball term.

The one that bothers me most is check instead of checked swing. Saying "a check swing" is like saying "a bake potato" or "a close-minded person."

But I'm an editor, and I can testify that even the Ivy League professors write, "This policy lead to a decrease in crime."

It is indeed hard to believe that anybody doing college ball would not know the rule for the OP. Many people don't know it, but it's in the rule book in black and white, and it's the same in all codes; you don't need J/R or Evans to figure it out. Still, I can think of several rules that I never fully understood until a few years ago (thanks to this forum). I can also remember a few times when I had to explain to a long-time umpire something that I had thought was common knowledge.

"There was one involving Cleveland a while back where they added the run back on the board later in the game."

And a few years ago, R1 had rounded 2B and was on his way to 3B when an outfielder made a diving catch. The MLB umpires called R1 out on appeal at second base and later admitted their error.

Jim acknowledged and discussed their use in amateur ball. Then he explained why he and other professional instructors, including those at PBUC choose not to use them.

It would be more accurate to say they use a different system. The use of the word "stubborn" implies that they refuse to use a superior system. They (professionals) do not believe it to be superior. They believe they are using what works best for their purposes.

They aren't always right.

I shouldn't have asked.

I was in Atlanta working a week long tournament, out of town, without my rule books, went on my laptop to ask a question and I catch all this crap.

All I wanted was rule cites not a whole bunch of garbage.

You wonder why more people don't use this site, this is why.

Do the letters, F.O., mean anything to yall?

Nor are they necessarily stubborn...nor necessarily wrong. They are different with a reason.

And I've never heard them refer to those who disagree as wrong or stubborn. So in my book they are least more understanding and tolerant.

Field Officer?

I will point out that your OP asks, "Does the run count?"

It doesn't state, "I know this run counts, but I'm pout of town without my books and need to prove it. Can someone please provide the OBR reference?"

[QUOTE=etn_ump;685044]

Then you should have indicated you were up to your resume and knew the rule and just wanted a citation, instead of asking a dumbass rookie question.

What is why? People pretending to be experienced veterans asking dumbass questions?

Forward Observer?

Methinks you might be just a l'il too thin-skinned for sports officiating.

Why would any umpire work a week-long tournament without access to a rule book, much less without bringing it along? Didn't any of the other umpires at the tournament have a rule book? How about the tournament director(s)? How would you resolve a protest at the tournament if nobody had a rule book? Just curious....

JJ
F.O. (Fine Official)

Touche'. But he had a laptop, and apparently access to internet to ask the question. So he had access to an OBR rule book at MLB.com

My trunk trunk has rule books in it, something he should consider.

Gentlemen,

Rather than "piling on", I'll just offer a different perspective.

When I saw etn_ump's post, I didn't notice his "credentials". So, I just tried to answer his question.

Personally, I thought it an exceptionally good answer. :o But hey, that's just me.

Now that his credentials have been called to my attention, I too am a little surprised that he asked the question.

But...

Some of the best umpires I know and have worked with are not especially "articulate" about the rules. They KNOW the rules, and how to properly apply them - they just aren't especially good at explaining why and giving supporting rule cites and such.

I myself am very good at those latter things, but some of these guys who aren't are better umpires than I in my own estimation. They just are.

Yes, I'm sure.

The body of etn_ump's posts here lead me to believe that he's a credible umpire in the leagues he works.

JMO.

JM

Same here.

This. At the least, keep a PDF copy on your computer.

You purport yourself to be a college umpire. It's not so much that you should have asked... it's that either A) you shouldn't have had to ask... or B) you are severely misrepresenting your credentials.

Seriously? This is a basic principal. You should have this down pretty clearly after your very first season of 10U ball. Seriously. You wonder why you're catching crap? This is a DUMB question that implies that you're either a REALLY bad coach, or you're out on the field umpiring with absolutely no training or even a single read through the rulebook.

Hmm. I don't recall wondering anything of the sort. Seems that except for 3 trolls and the occasional parent/coach who wants to come on here just to bag on umpires, we have a good group here - and everyone here comes to get better - not to display the fact that even though they umpire college games they've never read the book.

Oo. Ouch. You really got us there. We're wounded.