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-   -   Joyce misses one (https://forum.officiating.com/baseball/58286-joyce-misses-one.html)

archangel Thu Jun 03, 2010 10:02am
Well, I think we all can agree on 2 things:
- we all make mistakes
- thank god it wasnt me

refesq11 Thu Jun 03, 2010 10:29am
Quote:
Originally Posted by asdf (Post 679889)
Never gonna happen....

It's no different than if you are the Trail official and miss an obvious travel out top, in your primary, during the last seconds of a tied State Championship game. The missed call leads to a game winning basket.

You are not going to confer with your Center or your Lead in this situation. Nor are they going to come to you.

You just live or die with the call.

It's unfortunate, but bad things happen to good people........This situation proves it....all the way around.
Perfectly said. Moreover, baseball rules are very specific about what can be, and cannot be, appealed to a partner. This is simply not one of those situations. And, probably more than any other sport, baseball is absolutely taboo on partners giving unsolicited advice. Keep your nose out of it unless asked by your partner. Period.

KJUmp Thu Jun 03, 2010 11:30am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin Finnerty (Post 679788)
We could have had two perfect games in a week and three in a month. Nice job of altering history. Thanks for busting to get a good angle with a guy's once-in-a-lifetime achievement on the line.

Sleep tight.
Gee...guess you never screwed one up on the field. I'm sure that Jim Joyce could learn a great deal from you.

Texas Aggie Thu Jun 03, 2010 01:14pm
In football, we talk about big calls in certain situations -- like late in a close game, or ejections anytime: we want what we call to show up on film. That is a want, not a require -- so we'll get what we have to get. Last fall in a very close game, I flagged a clip on what ended up being a run for a TD; my call, which was clearly correct and did show up on film (I'm sure; didn't see it, but didn't hear about it later) probably affected the winner.

To me, in baseball, in the 9th inning of a perfect game, that SAFE call has GOT to be clear. While I don't want a team to be cheated, the runner is going to be out unless he's clearly safe -- dropped ball, missed bag, etc. Do you baseball guys agree or disagree with this?

The thing is, most very close plays at first I see in college and MLB almost always go out. Has Joyce said what he was thinking during the call?

cviverito Thu Jun 03, 2010 01:56pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Texas Aggie (Post 679988)
Has Joyce said what he was thinking during the call?
Yeah. He said he thought the runner beat it.

Kevin Finnerty Thu Jun 03, 2010 03:06pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimpiano (Post 679933)
No first basemen with an ounce of experience would let the ball go to the second basemen with the game or a perfect game on the line.
Plus, Plus!

You do NOT let the ball go by you in a perfect game. Period. There was so much noise that any communication by the second baseman couldn't be heard for certain. Cabrera took over, made a good, routine pick-up and made a fine feed and everything.

mick Thu Jun 03, 2010 03:09pm
So, ...
 
... Leyland sent Galaraga to the plate umpire Joyce with the lineup card where tears are flowing and Chevrolet gave Galaraga a Corvette.

Kevin Finnerty Thu Jun 03, 2010 03:09pm
Every umpire's hat should be off to Jim Joyce today.

The guy has handled the single most glaring call in over a generation with dignity and class. We should all be proud of the guy for the way he has taken this on.

Magnificent.

I'm telling you, when the red-eyed Joyce wiped his eyes and rubbed the tears off on his shirt, and turned and tapped Galarraga on the shoulder, it made you weep. This whole incident has elevated this pair of true professionals to an even higher level than completing the perfect game could have. Tom Verducci mentioned something like that and it's true.

http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?...=.jsp&c_id=mlb

What an amazing event.

mick Thu Jun 03, 2010 03:33pm
From Detroit:
 
Armando Galarraga presents lineup card to Jim Joyce | detnews.com | The Detroit News

BigGref Thu Jun 03, 2010 06:22pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dealone (Post 679926)
The only way I can visualize a top-level umpire missing a call like this was that the play developed in a way that compromised his perspective given his position on the line. I'm not saying Joyce was out of position. I'm saying the play ended up a footrace where Joyce had a difficult headon view (and not a great view for a F1 bobble either because the bobble is also going to be moving toward Joyce) and Joyce said that he saw the runner beat the throw. Whichever way F3 played ball is irrelevant. I would like to see a replay from a downline camera angle (Joyce's perspective) to see what might have caused Joyce to miss this important call so badly. I wish the media coverage would point out that this is difficult play because the ump has to be in two places at once (fieldside of F1 for the silent no-pop catch, and at same time, foul territory to judge the footrace from a decent lateral perspective). Maybe that argues for a call followed by standard consultation.
Well Put Dealone, look forward to some more posts...
This was indeed a not so normal play, due to the factors seen above, is an excuse... well, yes a little bit, but as it has been stated ad nauseum the game is officiated by humans, and some mistakes will happen, hopefully never at this level, at this moment. I also love how the slow motion, freeze frame shot that is shown on news channels today loudly proclaiming it was such an "easy call".
But as I saw tonight on the nightly news, Brian Williams put it well that the situation does send some great messages to the young players, that sometimes things may not go your way, even though you "deserved" it, that what you do afterwards shows the true you. there have been a lot of BIG people in this situation.
As far as some that just want to kick someone who is already down, by saying things like "hope your happy, etc," they're just dicks.

UMP25 Thu Jun 03, 2010 07:01pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mbyron (Post 679917)
There was no bobble. F1 caught the ball in the webbing while in contact with the base. As he came off the base, the ball slipped deeper into the glove. Not a bobble.

The ESPN video I saw shows the play.
By rule, then, that is not a catch of the ball and therefore should not be ruled an out. When tagging a base or runner, a fielder must have secure possession of the ball immediately before, during, and immediately after the tag is applied. This did not seem to occur in the play in question.

The very first time I saw the replay, admittedly after hearing about how Joyce kicked the call, I instantly belted out to myself, "Hey! The ball was moving in his mitt! He never had secure possession of it. My God! Joyce got the call correct but for the wrong reason."

Regardless, I'm not going to jump on the bandwagon that defends Joyce's call or blasts it. I'm simply stating what I saw in the first replay I viewed and why.

UMP25 Thu Jun 03, 2010 07:05pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin Finnerty (Post 680032)
Every umpire's hat should be off to Jim Joyce today.

The guy has handled the single most glaring call in over a generation with dignity and class. We should all be proud of the guy for the way he has taken this on.

Magnificent.

I'm telling you, when the red-eyed Joyce wiped his eyes and rubbed the tears off on his shirt, and turned and tapped Galarraga on the shoulder, it made you weep. This whole incident has elevated this pair of true professionals to an even higher level than completing the perfect game could have. Tom Verducci mentioned something like that and it's true.

Gammons: Tigers, Joyce show class | MLB.com: News

What an amazing event.
What a contrast between this situation and Milt Pappas's near perfecto when Bruce Froemming was behind the plate and called a pitch ball four to ruin Milt's perfect game. In an interview today on ABC 7 Chicago News, Milt ripped into Froemming, calling him, among other things, "arrogant". Milt went on to praise Joyce then continued ripping into Froemming's attitude and demeanor, saying that when he was asked by Froemming if he wanted Froemming's autograph on the ball, Pappas told Froemming, "You can shove that ball up your @ss!"

Big difference between umpires there.

collinb Thu Jun 03, 2010 08:20pm
Get it right
 
Why is it that all the umpires could not have gotten together and got the call right. I have been on both sides of a kicked call in two umpiring.
I'm not to proud to reverse the call that everyone and my partner see as an error in judgement.
I believe an umpire should never call an out if he does not see it.
So if you did not see it what's wrong with calling safe and getting together with your partners and making a determination on the right call.
If it's bang bang then you leave the call as is.

eyezen Thu Jun 03, 2010 08:29pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimpiano (Post 679933)
The idea that the first baseman somehow contributed to the confusion by fielding the ball and throwing out the runner on a pitcher covering is the most ludicrous defense I have seen on here.

It was a simple play and it was the 27th out of a perfect game!
I played first base.
That is a routine play for professionals who practice pitcher covering all year long.
No first basemen with an ounce of experience would let the ball go to the second basemen with the game or a perfect game on the line.
Whatever, MTD has a great point. I played 1B too for whatever that's worth, except to dismiss your ounce of experience claim, that ball is 2B's all the way. I'm going to cover the bag like I should and in my game the perfecto would of been celebrated. The 1B got caught up in the moment as well and made the entire play more difficult than it should of been. Doesn't dismiss the call at all but to say it had no effect is just as ludicrous.

SethPDX Thu Jun 03, 2010 08:37pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by collinb (Post 680094)
Why is it that all the umpires could not have gotten together and got the call right. I have been on both sides of a kicked call in two umpiring.
I'm not to proud to reverse the call that everyone and my partner see as an error in judgement.
I believe an umpire should never call an out if he does not see it.
So if you did not see it what's wrong with calling safe and getting together with your partners and making a determination on the right call.
If it's bang bang then you leave the call as is.
Joyce believed he had the call right, and besides, this is not a play in which you go to your partners.


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