Ozzie's at it again.....
 

Rips Joe West.

Guillen rips ump after White Sox top Indians 5-4 - USATODAY.com

I smell a fine!

More like a suspension. Second one definitely looked like a balk to me.

"But in the meanwhile, those years are on his shoulders and kind of heavy and showing people who he is."

Classic. Oz calls Cowboy Joe fat.

Has Joe called any of KRods games and called a no stop balk? I thought that that lefties can get away with murder so I watch them close but I can't see the balk in the first one but maybe in the second one in the video I pull up. What did Joe see? The 2B ump echoed it quicker than I would expect so what did he see? The only thing I can think of that would get Joe and the 2B ump to be right behind him is a hanging leg. Anybody seen better videos? Why don't they call the nostop and twitching feet while coming set and yet call this. I think it's because at that level the stop and twitches are meaningless to a runner but whatever Buehrle did can fool an MLB runner. The first runner was certainley fooled and you woudn't expect that at this level.

Buehrle has picked quite a few guys off over the years. The first one I thought was much less egrigious (sp?) than the second. I'm not a baseball umpire, but I'm a lefty and I've pitched before. I know of the "45 degree angle" rule (if that even is one), but to me it looked like Buehrle started leaning towards home like he was going to pitch, then threw to first.

Can someone post the relevant rules?

I would say both Ozzie and Buehrle will be hearing from MLB regarding their comments.

Ozzie, Buehrle ejected for arguing balks | MLB.com: News

I had trouble seeing the reason for the balks. This video focuses more on the ejections than the balks themselves. He looked as to me he was pushing the 45 degree line, but can't tell if he crossed it.

The announcers were entertaining though!

There is no "45 degree" rule. 8.05 requires the pitcher to step and throw to a base, and that's interpreted as stepping more toward the base than the plate. In practice, that amounts to about 45°.

You can find rule 8 (and the other 9 as well) on the mlb site:
Official Rules | MLB.com: Official info

The second one was clearer than the first. It's not about the step: F1 clearly moves to home as he steps and throws to 1B. His whole upper body is moving toward the plate.

Exactly

-Josh

Well... it amounts to EXACTLY 45 degrees... which is why some (many) call it the 45 degree rule. So ... there kind of is.

That's what I saw on the second one, too.

My point: it's not a rule. It's an interp. That matters when somebody asks where it is in the rules.

The idea of exactly 45° is ridiculous, since nobody uses a protractor to measure.

But the line from home to the pitcher's plate and the line from the pitcher's plate to 1B are at an angle of greater than 90 degrees.

For the angle to be 90 degrees, the pitcher's plate would have to be halfway between home and 2B, directly on the 1B-3B line. But the "rubber" is a yard in front of that line.

Trig, anyone?

mbyron:

I know how to use a protractor and have used one countless times.

MTD, Sr.
Bachelor of Engineering in Civil Engineering, William Rayen School of Engineering, Youngstown (Ohio) State University, :D

greymule:

I agree with you.

MTD, Sr.

The second balk was a no brainer, F1 stepped toward HP while throwing to 1B.

The first balk was more nuanced. I guess I was lucky when I watched the video because I thought I saw a shoulder twitch by F1 before he started his motion to the plate the very first time I saw the video and that would be a balk.

Yes, the announcers were funny and clueless.

MTD, Sr.

When I first saw this from the camera angle behind him I too thought it was an easy call.

That goes without saying.....but, you said it. Or something like that. ;)

1. the announcers are ridiculous
2. Guillen doesn't have a leg to stand on. West gave him an opportunity to state his case and then Guillen went back at him.
3. West wasn't showing anyone up. Buerle came at him after the first one and West backed up first but then responded to Buerle.
4. first balk, does movement in the back leg have anything to do with the call. I am a basketball official and baseball fan so educate me.
5. second balk, I agree that Buerle was moving forward before the throw to first.
6. since the runner wasn't fooled (second balk) and considering the level possible act that could be called a balk, do you pass on this? I am a basketball official and would like a fellow arbiter brother in another sport opinion.

Distance from front-center pitcher's plate to back corner of home plate: 60' 6"
Distance from back corner of home plate to back corner of first base: 90'
Distance from front-center of pitcher's plate to back corner of first base: 63' 8 5/8"

Angle at home plate formed by foul line and line directly to center of pitcher's plate: 45 degrees
Angle formed by foul line and line from back corner of first to front center of pitcher's plate: 42.2 degrees
Angle formed by lines from front center of pitcher's plate to back corner of home plate & from front center of pitcher's plate to back corner of first base: 92.8 degrees

So I guess its more like stepping to the 46.4.

:)

Uh, it's NOT EXACTLY 45 degrees. When standing on the mound, the angle between home and first is about 92.824 degrees. Halfway would be more like 46.412.

While I know this discussion is primarily base upon OBR, in the FED casebook:

6.2.4 Sitiuation B: With R1 on first, F1 attempts a pickoff while stepping at an angle but to the home plate side. Ruling: Balk. To comply with the requirement to "step directly toward", F1 must step to the first-base side of a 45-degree angle between center of the pitcher's plate and between home and first base.

I stand corrected.

Beat ya, but you are more precise. :)

I had to dust off my trigonometry knowledge. It took me a while. Once upon a time, I probably could have done it in my head (save the lookup for the arctan value).

Some interesting comments by Joe West
 

First one must have been some type of start and stop. 2nd one was pretty obvious from West's angle. Those announcers are morons. "Look at West trying to get himself into the game." West put up the stop sign, Ozzie didn't stop. What is he supposed to do?

I'm not much of a Joe West fan either, and I didn't see much on the first balk, a better case can be made for the second. But West didn't help himself in my eyes when he went over and collected the trash that Ozzie dumped out of his pockets right in front of the Sox bench. That's just stupid and instigating. You lose any chance of defusing the situation doing that.

And yes, Harrelson especially is a moron and wouldn't know a rule if it rose up and bit him. I can't wait until he retires and I can watch a game in peace. Three years ago, his ignorance was on display on an obstruction call. And of course even after it became clear what the real ruling was, he never said oops, I goofed. It was discussed on this forum in 2007.

http://forum.officiating.com/basebal...ncer-ever.html

It was white garbage and you're certainly not going to send PU over there. I wouldn't have done it either...but I'm not an MLB umpire nor will I ever be one.

No, I don't send the PU either but the bat boy, ball girl, or a security guard can take care of it without me doing it. And my guess is it was his line up card because it looked like a 3x6 sheet of paper. Regardless, I'm not headed over there to clean it up right in front of the dug out. Don't go looking for trouble.

In the Majors with all those folks around, I would not have picked it up at all. I would not do that in a amateur game either. At least that is how I would have handled it.

Peace

It seems as the only people defending Joe West in this are other umpires. I have not heard one non-umpire who has not taken Joe to task on his handling of the situation. Not just the announcers, writers and fans, but all non-umpires.

And this surprises you? This is very typical of all situations involving officials. Just look at the NBA situation the other night. Officials never get a pass on what they do even when they are completely justified. If they enforce a clear rule, these people will say "he does this all the time....blah...blah...blah." And it is mainly because announcers, writers and fans have in most cases have never had the courage to do this activity themselves. That is why so many get into officiating from other aspects of life and find out, "This was a lot harder than I thought."

Peace

does anyone have actual footage of these balk calls? I would like to see raw footage to determine for myself before I make comments either way.

Please do not resuscitate, for as from this moment on I've been officially bored to death.

You forgot to mention all the people that have bought his country albums.

Looks like the boyz at Head Office ain't happy with Country Joe.....

MLB plans showdown with umpire Joe West - MLB - Yahoo! Sports

More work for his PR people.....

Some of the things mentioned in that link are what bugs me about Joe West. It's not the calls or the ejections, it's the way he has handles himself off field. (And for the record, I'm not a baseball umpire.)

He had no business going on that radio show and talking about the incident with the White Sox. He's allowed to have an opinion about how long the Red Sox and Yankees take to play a ball game, but he should direct the comments to the commissioner's office and not the media.

An umpire should not be trying to gain notoriety by having a PR guy contact the media on his behalf. This is why the "inject himself into the ballgame" comments are said. Even if it is not his intention, it gives the appearance that he is trying to create some controversy so he can appear on another talk show.

Ya think the author doesn't care for Country Joe?
 

"Joe West is an infidel, an attention whore of Lady Gaga proportions whose proclivity for theatrics shames the umpiring profession."

Here's how he interprets the incident:

"West carries the reputation as a poor umpire and grudge holder, and so his unceremonious tossing of Guillen and Buehrle surprised no one. West called a balk on Buehrle, whose pickoff move is recognized as one of the game’s best. It was a suspect-at-best call, or par for the course, and he tossed Guillen for protesting. When West flagged Buehrle for another balk – just a flat-out bad call – the pitcher, disgusted, softly flopped his glove on the ground. West ejected him, too."

A scathing write-up! :eek:

I chuckled at that paragraph too. The "reputation as a poor umpire" is in the media only. Both Buehrle and Guillen acknowledged that he is "one of the best."

And the part you bolded was even funnier considering that practically everyone on this board and a few others I've been following agree that it was the more obvious of the two balks.

(And for the record, I'm not a baseball umpire.)

I just love the way the "talking heads" today really believe that just because they are capable and allowed to form words into sentences, that what they say is correct and factual. When it comes down to it though, we realize that the hot air expelled from their body orfice is indeed just that.

Until you have stood on that field and dealt with a good left-handed pitcher, with a great move to first, which is borderline each and everytime, then you don't have a clue. I am supporting Joe because I have seen it. Not at the MLB level which I will never work but, I have seen it at some semi-pro levels.

Your just like so many of the other talking heads. It ok for you to be critical but when the official defends hisself or gives it back to you then you whimper how unfair that is. Within the limitations of his contract (and Joe should know that), he has as much right to express hisself as you do, regardless how right or wrong you think it is.

My opinion is, Give us a break, go on a media forum.

I may not be a baseball umpire, but I do officiate. I never once said it was unfair. What I said was that when he goes to the media like he did, it gives the appearance that he is trying to create controversy in order to make his name known. If he wishes to defend hisself [sic], he can talk to the umpire association and/or commissioner.

And the players and coaches have no business talking to the media about the umpire either. They should go through the proper channels as well and keep their opinions about the officiating out of the media.

A) That's because only real umpires understand that both balks were balks ... and NONE of us would take a player throwing a glove down over one of our calls. B) It's also because the announcers have a pulpit, the umpires don't. The announcer went nuts over this - so everyone who heard him ... and everyone who heard those that heard him, and so on, think it was bad. Had the announcer said, "Yup, that's a balk", there would be no S-Storm over this.

Create Controversy? He didn't create squat ... the controversy is already there. Um ... his name is already known. Exactly why are you qualified to make the decision as to who he can talk to? Within the bounds of his contract, he can talk to whoever he wants. He has just as much right to discuss this call with the radio as Ozzie and Mark did with the TV.

While I might agree with that in principle, it just doesn't work out that way. It would be NICE if they didn't ... and then the umpire wouldn't feel compelled to go on the radio. But they did, and they will.

I noticed in the video that the first balk was called by BOTH West and the 2B umpire at approximately the same time. I doubt that Joe paid the other guy off just to settle a score with the White Sox.

Given the camera angle, I couldn't tell if others called the second balk. But since the balk involved a move toward the plate, the 1B umpire has the best view of that.

This Jeff Passan guy sounds like a real horse's a$$. Talk about someone unqualified to speak about an umpire's ability! The article is laced with comments that prove this writer doesn't have a clue about the game of baseball, much less umpiring.

Imo the only pertinent and newsworthy fact(if it is indeed a fact) in the article was that the MLB head office is planning to fine and/or suspend West. Everything else was a re-hash of personal prejudices on the writer's side, which is what most of these articles are usually about anyway.

Agreed. I just sent the guy a nastigram - feel free to do the same.

I just did. I gave him a lot to get through his thick skull about Joe West and umpiring in general.

Mike & Steve,

As has been said, "Never argue with an idiot. He will simply drag you down to his level and then beat you with experience."

I fear your missives will neither enlighten, chasten, nor subdue Mr. Passan. He's a self-important gasbag with an oversized ego that will only be fed by your attention.

I wouldn't have bothered.

JM

You sure about that? I'm not a MLB umpire, nor have I read their contract with MLB, but unless there's something in the contract that forbids it, West can talk on whatever show asks him, if he wants to. And he can comment on the length of games, if he wants. He's still an American citizen. If you're against free speech, go join your friends in Al Qaeda.

Might not be the wisest course for him, but he's certainly allowed.

Happy Memorial Day.

There's something in the MLBUM about the crew chief only or MLB talking about calls that took place in a game. West is probably the crew chief so he can talk about the plays. Not sure about 2010, but I did ready something along those lines in 2009

I'm guessing that West's fine has more to do with his publicist (!) releasing what series West was going to be umpiring ahead of time and inviting media contact. I doubt it has anything directly to do with the on-field incident with Chicago.

What about the shooing-away of Ozzie? I think that's where his fine comes in. There's no way I ever want to be caught shooing away a coach like that. I speak from basketball experience, but I would think that this applies to all sports, doesn't matter if it's cheerleading or basketball. It just looks ridiculously unprofessional.

Just what some of the reports are saying.

It's about his self-promotion activity.

Free speech stops at the workplace door (ask your own lawyer if you wish).

Considering the source from this MLB.com article "Umpire Joe West and White Sox manager Ozzie Guillen and pitcher Mark Buehrle were all fined an undisclosed amount of money by Major League Baseball on Friday for their part in an incident that involved called balks earlier this week, a person with knowledge of the situation told MLB.com.
No suspensions were levied. A spokesman for MLB declined to comment and would not confirm nor deny the financial sanctions. "

I doubt that West was fined, someone in MLB probaby threw that tidbit out to satisfy the angry press.

And on the topic of West being a bad umpire, being selected to work the World Series last year sort of negates that.

West was, indeed fined. I can tell you as well that MLB is not very happy with Joe over the comments he publicly made, which was not permitted under their contract. A prior incident involving Joe also has earned him MLB's ire.

He was telling Ozzie not to come out to argue the balk. That is pretty common in the bigs.

West's actions were unprofessional. The guy's got an ego as big as Ozzie's, which is very big. West's fine was deserving.

+1
He may even understand and agree with everything you say, but that's not good copy. He's just an entertainer, trying to entertain.

So he had to do it that demonstratively? Can't he just wait for Ozzie to get out there and say "Hey Ozzie, it's not worth arguing, go back and sit down"?

Apparently not, and I think that was part of the reason he got fined.

I'm no fan at all of Ozzie, but telling him to "get the f--k off the field" isn't exactly very professional.

That is a big assumption, especially when you see numerous MLB umpires doing it. It is accepted at that level.

I think he got fined for making comments to the media.

UMP25, West said he didn't tell Ozzie that so somebody is lying.

I wouldn't believe Ozzie if he said the sky was blue.

Regardless of how many umpires do it, it still looks really unprofessional and immature. I know managers aren't allowed to argue judgement calls, but the way West did it was wrong, IMO

I knew that. Really.
JJ

Are you talking about the stop sign West gave him? Because that action is pretty much accepted in many circles of baseball. And it is really acceptable in basketball which you officiate. Not saying it works, but it is advocated a lot. I just came back from basketball camp and this was talked about all the time. I think you would be in the minority if you consider this unprofessional.

Peace

Am I qualified? Probably as much as anybody with an officiating license. Is it my decision to make? Certainly not. However, I'm taking the fine as vindication that those that do make that decision share my opinion. It's not about baseball...I specifically said I didn't care about the balks or the ejections. It's not about employment contracts or freedom of speech. It's about how officials should conduct themselves both on and off the field. It's about a social contract with his fellow umpires. As a fellow official (even if it is a different sport), I fail to see how my opinion is completely worthless in this area.

West's off-field actions (and those of his PR person) are what drives the comments from the rats of "injected himself into the game" and "wanted to sell more CDs." Let me be clear...I'm not defending those comments. They're pure BS AFAIC. But, Joe doesn't help himself or his fellow umpires when he seeks out the media outlets afterward.

Perhaps you'd feel better if I made it a hypothetical instead of calling out Joe West specifically. So here goes. If one of the officials in my association went seeking attention from the media after making a non-controversial call (from the officials' perspective) that was made controversial by the coaches, players, and media; there would be a major fecal-storm at our next meeting.

Bad comparison. Someone like Joe West is not likely in your association; consider that your association is not Major League Baseball affiliated. As someone said MLB Crew Chiefs can speak to the media. And this has not been the first time this season in about a week, let alone this year. When Bob Davidson threw out the batter from Tampa Bay, the crew chief spoke on the matter to the media. You need to find another example.

Peace

Baseball Video Highlights & Clips | CWS@CLE: Ozzie is ejected for arguing a balk call - Video | MLB.com: Multimedia

There's a stop sign at about :47 seconds, and then there's not one, but two "shoo-aways" at about the 1:00 mark.

Two very different things, IMO.

I do not completely disagree with you. But this is the pros. These individuals know and work together for years. I am sure Joe West did Ozzie's games most of his career. These guys have a different set of standards. And we also do not know the interaction. Keep in mind there are probably a few f-bombs being thrown at each other too.

Peace

Ok, I admit, I wasn't there, but.....
 

The video and description seem to follow what West said in the below interview:

West, On ejecting Ozzie Guillen:

“Ozzie came out to protect his pitcher, which was probably a good idea at the time because Buehrle was drawing lines in the dirt on the mound and he was about to get ejected then. He even said that he was out there not to argue the balk, but to protect his pitcher. He should come out in that situation. I told him, ‘Everything is OK now Ozzie, you can go back to the dugout.’ He got mad because I told him to go back. And he used a couple profanity laced lines. And that got him ejected. But it was actually not as blown up as it looks like on television. It was kind of funny that he had a tirade at the end of the game because he didn’t actually didn’t say exactly what happened out there.“

If you want to see F-Bombs flying, check out the video of Tim Tschida ejecting Joe Maddon. There looked to plenty of them.