Pitching from the stretch
 

Question; OBR. Can a pitcher from the stretch have both hands together while taking the sign? Pitcher tonight was taking his sign with his hands together then bringing his hands closer to his body and pausing. Is this legal?

No he cannot. This is considered a set position. During the stretch, his pitching hand must be at his side or behind him.

The stretch is the set position.

Why would it be illegal to take the sign after the pitcher's hands come together?

I can see a balk for a pause in motion, but that's about it.

As described it is a balk for starting and stopping.

Once the hands are together and the pitcher stops moving/pauses, the pitcher is considered set. Any movement after that point must be a pitch (excluding such things as a throw to first).

The OP described a pitcher getting set, then moving to re-set, that would be a balk for the re-set or start and stop, however you would like to describe it.
There is nothing preventing a pitcher from getting set and then taking their sign. However it doesn't sound smart because any obvious adjustment at that point would be a balk. And it would take nerves of steal not to move for such a long time after taking each sign.

Jasper

It sounds like from the OP that the pitcher started out with his hands together, and then made a double set, which is indeed a balk. I don't think UmpTTS43 was referring to taking the signs with his hands together, he was actually referring to the pitcher being set and then moving his hands closer to his body and resetting.

Mental pause
 

If you believe it is an attempt to deceive the runner, then it may have been a balk. The pitcher cannot step onto the rubber with his hands together. His movement may have been unorthodox, but it is not a balk simply because the movement was an "unusual or unnatural" motion.

OBR "Preparatory to coming to a set position, the pitcher SHALL, have his one hand on his side; from this position he SHALL go to his set position as defined in Rule 8.01 (b) without interuption and in one continuous motion"

"The pitcher following his stretch MUST........b. come to a complete stop."

I don't have a balk here, as long as that pause is really a complete stop.

It sounds to me like he came set, then got his signs, then came set again. How is this not a balk?

That's what i read from the OP. He started with hands together, got the sign and then went to the set position.

See that a lot in young players, no one has taught them the separate their hands.

Thanks
David

This is exactly what was happening. It was a young pitcher and the umpires did not call a balk. However there was some talk in the stands about wether this was actually legal or not.

Exactly the point
 

If he separates his hands and does not deliver the pitch, it is a balk.

He starts with his hands together implies he balked when he stepped on the rubber. Don't do that.

Now if he brings his hands together legally, ala starting with his hands together, while taking the sign and continues to the set position. Is it a balk?

He may come to a complete stop, take the sign and then proceed with the delivery. He doesn't have to take the signs at all. Who is he deceiving by a small delay in his pitching motion? Let his pitching coach make that decision.

OK Steve, you want to call it a balk, its a balk. He came to a complete stop and evidently deceived NO ONE.

Double set = balk. If he is on the rubber, with hands together and completely stopped he is set. If he then moves hands and stops again he has double set. It is irrelevant when he got the sign. The balk is the double set.

He came set and then made a motion naturally associated with his pitch and failed to make such delivery. Balk OBR 8.05 (a)

We are not required to determine if anyone was deceived, only to enforce the balk rules.

+1

The criterion of determining whether F1's intent is deception (mentioned in OBR 8.05 but not in FED) is to be employed ONLY when the umpire is in doubt about whether F1 has balked.

In this case, the umpire should be in no doubt whatsoever. Therefore F1's intent is irrelevant.

I agree with the balk call here. Once F1 brings his hands together and stops, he is set. If he stares in for the sign, then moves his hands closer to his body, we have a double set.

However, if F1 brings his hands together as in the OP and then leans in for the sign, you must call the balk right then and there. F1 has come set, then made movement that was not delivering the pitch or attempting to make a play. In this case, do not allow F1 to go any farther without balking him.

Ozzy, there is no separate balk rule about a "double set." Both of your examples are enforced under the same rule..8.05(a) and in the pro circles are known as "started and stopped".

I have many times seen a pitcher put his hands together in front of him with the pivot foot on the plate and the non-pivot foot stretched out about shoulder width. He takes his signs and then sets by bringing his hands to his body and feet together. I am suspecting this is what is happening. If the poster would clarify, maybe we could end this discussion in 3 threads.

Not having been there I am assuming this is what happened.

/That's what the pitcher was doing. I thought I had clarified.

It's a balk.

Don't agree Bob but, thats ok.

You do understand that it's the hands coming together that "establishes" the set, right? So the pitcher has come set. He then starts, then stops. Read OBR 8.05 (a)

It would be hard to find a better example.

jicecone, in baseball there's much room for intelligent people to disagree. This play allows no such room. Black-letter rule balk.

Dah me. After re-reading I am throughly convinced that the only one wrong here was me.

Sorry guys.