Base award on Appeal overthrow
 

Had a situation last night that I'm fairly certain I got right but just want to verify.

R1 with 1 out, BR hits flyball that looks like it might drop in. R1 is almost at second base when left fielder makes a great catch and comes up firing to first trying to get R1. Ball gets passed everyone and ends up in dead ball territory.

What base is R1 awarded?

2 bases from time of throw. He must retouch, even if the ball is dead.

Third base.

Just to clarify: place the runner at third base. Do not let the defensive coach try to argue the so-called "1+1" rule where the runner gets the base he's trying for plus one more and that after the catch in the outfield the base he is trying for is a return to first.

This was the exact scenario, didn't buy it and awarded third. The next inning the opposition manager came to me and asked why his runner got third. He was surprised that all throws that don't come from the rubber are two base awards, either from time of pitch or time of throw.

I shouldn't be surprised by the ignorance of coaches but we're not talking about first time coaches, these are guys that have been in the game for 15-20 years.

That doesn't mean they've ever read a rule book. :D

Awards
 

I once awarded a dead-ball award and informed the runner he was awarded 3rd base. He was between 2nd and 3rd at the time of the award.

The runner proceeded to 3rd base.

PU puts the ball back into play. I was expecting an appeal on a missed base at 1st. Nobody said anything and the inning ended with the next batter hitting a pop-up.

Between innings the DC came out and asked me about the award and appeal. He wanted to know why I had not called the runner out for not going back and touching 1st base.:eek:

I informed the coach that umpires no longer call runners out for missing a base.:rolleyes:

I got the "deer in the headlights" look and he went back to the dugout. :D

Twist it a little..

Situation 1: If R1 was between 2nd and 3rd when F9 made an amazing catch, then F9 wildly rocketed it back into DBT (R1 still in between 2nd and 3rd at TOT)...R1 may not retouch and is out on appeal; award 2 bases from TOT (award home).

Situation 2: R1. BR hits it in deep right-center. F9 makes a great catch. Seeing R1 is almost to 3rd but slamming on the brakes, a smart but not so smart F9 thinks "Man, I've got him dead-red if I throw into DHT." F9 intentionally throws into DBT. The umpire judges F9 intentionally threw into DBT.

This is a situation where we allow R1 to return to touch; however (I can't remember), in this exception, is the award now from the TOP?

FED 8-3-3d (2008 ed.)
 

A runner shall not be declared out if the fielder deliberately throws or carries the ball into DBT to prevent that runner who has touched or advanced beyond a succeeding base from returning to a missed base or a base left too soon. Award the runner 2 bases. This allows the runner(s) to correct any base-running error.

I don't think so. Since the throw is from the outfield, it should be time of throw. From the infield it would be time of pitch.

Ok, so it's still TOT and we are going to award R1 home. However, we will allow R1 to re-touch 1st.

I believe we award R1 home, because he was past second base and that's seen as the last legally acquired base. We allow him to retouch first, but then he has to touch all other bases on his way home.

The defense can appeal at first and R1 can be out on a proper appeal.

I believe in the Major League manual you initially award him home, and as soon as he goes back and retouches 1st, you change the award to 3rd base.

If anyone has a copy they can verify.

It might not be this play, but there is in fact a play where the award is changed when the runner properly retouches his base.

BaBa Booey,

From the MLBUM:

It is the same in FED as specified in 8-3-5.

JM

Thanks JM for the reference. That's what I thought.

Whether the throw is from the outfield or the infield is immaterial, except for first play by an infielder in OBR.

OBR differs from Fed in terms of when the runner can no longer legally return to retouch a base left too soon (unless Fed changed its rule recently).

In Fed, if when the ball enters DBT the runner is on or beyond the base after the one he left too soon, he cannot legally retouch, even if he was already retreating when the ball entered DBT.

Was the coach Rip Van Winkle? He had to have been in a coma for the last 20 years.:confused:

One thing the MLBUM ruling doesn't mention, but is probably obvious to most people on this board. Doesn't the runner between second and third also have to touch second on his way back to first?

So, if the ball went into DBT while he's between second and third, he's initially awarded home. But, he needs to touch second, then first. At this point, his award is changed to third. He again needs to touch second on his way to third.

Yes.

Great reference.

Had the exact same play as in the OP a couple of weeks ago (FED game).This was in the late innings of a close game and this runner scored on a hit two batters latter, proving to be the winning run.

After awarding the runner third base, the defensive coach wants time to discuss it. He's adamant that the runner should only get second base because he "left early and has to tag up" and puts up a bit of a fuss. He did tag up, as the ball sailed out of play, and he gets two bases. Sorry, no dice.

Just his being out of the dugout and questioning the call gets the fans on his side aggitated and they're getting pretty animated.

So, the runner eventually scores, nobody scores in the seventh and that's the ballgame- a close loss for one side.

As my partner and I step off the field, two fans corner us about "that play" and want to know why the runner got third. "Because that's the rule", I tell tell them.

We get another few feet and another guy cuts us off to tell us we blew that call. He says he knows the rule "because he plays slow pitch softball"! The guy gets a little belligerant, so we just blow him off.

We get to our cars and some white-haired grandmotherly type comes up and just literally rips us both a new one! She goes off on a rant about how we "robbed the kids" and "it's not fair" and we "should never be allowed to umpire any games again". She's just totally blowing a gasket and laying into us! The sight of this old broad ripping into us was so comical I couldn't help myself and just looked at my partner and laughed.

This was, by far, the worst fan reaction to any call in any game I've been involved with so far this year. The ironic part of it is that we were getting chewed up for making the 100% absolutely correct call!

I was mentoring a brand new umpire last night and one of their questions was, "What's the hardest thing about being an umpire?"

My response was, dealing with coaches, players and fans that think they know the rulebook but in reality, don't have a clue.

In their minds they are 100% correct but if they ever took the chance to actually read the rulebook, they would be surprised about their level of ignorance.

JM, thanks for the reference!

Also, in this situation, wouldn't the general principle of "last time by" be applicable if he went directly back to first and then touched second on his way to third?

Yes.

I must have missed this. Is the principle "last time by" spelled out somewhere. Is it true for all codes? Thanks

-Josh

Yes, true for all codes.

The principle is implicit in the base running rules (acquire by passing, definition of 'touch', retouch, appeals, etc.).

No rule says "each time by."

A brief search gave me this FED reference, but seeing as I no long work HS ball I have no idea what is says. But you can check it out if you want.

Courtesy of Mbyron:

The principle you need is called "last time by." When runners are passing a base, they are liable for not touching the base unless they touch it on their last time by. FED implicitly recognizes this principle in, for example 8.2.1C.

In OBR, "last time by" does not correct a "gross miss" (i.e., more than a body length). So if the runner between 2B and 3B ran straight across the diamond to 1B, his subsequent touch of 2B would not correct the gross error.

[A spectator knows the rule ]"because he plays slow pitch softball"!

ASA softball awards 2 bases (not 1+1) TOT, even first play by an infielder. (However, the award is from the runner's position on the basepaths TOT, so a runner who has left 1B too soon but is between 2B and 3B when the throw is made is awarded home, but he still has to retouch 1B.)

I believe that one softball code (USSSA) does award "the base you're returning to plus one."

You are correct, sir. In fact, I even said to this "expert", "Then you must play USSSA softball". That elicited a deer in the headlights blank stare.

(At least, that's their slow pitch rule. Their fastpitch rule is just like ASA.)