Was I Trigger Happy?
 

Had a game yesterday where I set a personal record, 3 ejections within 5-10 minutes.

Firstly, OBR rules.

Offense had a runner at first base and the pitcher attempted a pick off. The runner attempted to slide back into first but instead of sliding into the bag, slid into the foot of the first baseman. Fairly straightforward call in my mind, the runner had over half the bag to slide back into but instead slid directly into the first baseman's foot and never got back to the base. I called the runner out.

The runner immediately gets up and says, "You're "F'ed" up!". Ejection #1.

The first base coach then started questioning whether the first baseman was blocking first base. I explained what I saw, whereby the first baseman was standing on first base with his heel on the base and his toes off the side of the bag, not taking up more then 4-5 inches of the bag, leaving at least 10" for the base runner. At one point, the coach says something to the effect of "You're crazy", ejection #2.

The manager then comes over from third base and we start the discussion over again. After about 10 seconds the manager turns around and returns to his position at third base. Game continues.

Subsequent batter gets on base and the manager, from third base, starts complaining that the first baseman is blocking the bag. Firstly, regardless of what the first baseman is doing there isn't a play being made so it doesn't matter. However, when I looked from my position in the infield I could clearly see most of the base and told the manager that there was lots of room for the runner. The manager then turned to his bench and yelled, "Well boys, looks like we're going back real hard to first." Ejection #3. I'm not going to allow a coach/manager to instruct his players to attempt to injure the opposition.

Leaving myself open here but was I trigger happy?

First one: Correct.
Second one: Depends on the tone and volume. HTBT probably to get a good feel for it.
Third one: I would have called "Time" and told him to "Knock it off". EJ's may follow depending on him and any of his players' actions after it during the game. But, on the side of safety, I don't see any problem with that EJ.

EJ #1: No question, he's gone!

EJ #2: Depends. I would make the call, but not explain it to him. He's an assistant, and I would tell him I will discuss it with the head coach if he feels its necessary. If the assistant persists, then he's gone.

EJ #3: He's trying to show you up. Dump him.

Gosh,
 

Over the last ten or so years on this Board we have discussed this statement over-and-over.

As an experienced umpire (and instructor) I teach NOT to say this statement. It sounds like two 10 years old bickering on a play ground.

We find "Hey Skip, we're not going to go there!" a much better starting point.

YMMV

T

1. gone
2. gone
3. gone

Depends on the level. If we're talking HS/college baseball, I agree with you. Summer ball? "Knock it off" is probably exactly the tone I'm looking for.

Was I Trigger Happy?
 

Don't quote measurements, inches, 1/2 of the bag, etc. Just say "F3 was not blocking access to the bag". If the coach continues, he is arguing your judgement, not the amount of space F3 left.

BTW, I like "That's enough" with a stop sign better than "Knock it off". Don't make life complicated.

My .02:

1. He ejected himself, you told everyone that he got what he wanted.
2. HTBT, but from what you said, he bought his own parking lot ticket.
3. See #2, but when he shouts like that into the dugout, I don't blame you.

To answer the other part of the question:

Go look at yourself in the mirror and ask two questions:

1. Was I in control of my emotions when I ejected all of these people?
2. Would you do it again if the same situation occured right now?

When you look yourself in the eyes and answer the questions, then you know if you were trigger happy.

Normally the only ejection you regret is the one you didn't make!

Dump 1 and 2 and ask coach what exactly does he mean for 3rd sit, and then dump him when he answers.

If someone gets dumped for answering an umpire's question, then either a) the question should not have been asked, b) he was baited, or c) both.

Couple of questions before I answer whether or not you were trigger happy.

You say OBR right?
You also say the runner slid into his foot. Did the throw take him there, or was he already there? because you go on to admit to the coach that 1B was blocking some of the bag.

If these are true, I think the coach and the runner have a little leeway to complain. This is textbook obstruction in OBR.

Not exactly sure it makes a difference since there was plenty of access to the bag, but in this situation the first baseman was in the act of catching the ball when his foot was put on the bag.

How about quoting exactly where in that textbook for OBR you are reading because, I am unaware of how this is obstuction.

Under the definition of "Obstruction"

OBSTRUCTION is the act of a fielder who, while not in possession of the ball and
not in the act of fielding the ball, impedes the progress of any runner.
Rule 2.00 (Obstruction) Comment: If a fielder is about to receive a thrown ball and if the ball is in
flight directly toward and near enough to the fielder so he must occupy his position to receive the ball he
may be considered “in the act of fielding a ball.” It is entirely up to the judgment of the umpire as to
whether a fielder is in the act of fielding a ball. After a fielder has made an attempt to field a ball and
missed, he can no longer be in the “act of fielding” the ball. For example: an infielder dives at a ground
ball and the ball passes him and he continues to lie on the ground and delays the progress of the runner,
he very likely has obstructed the runner.

Having plenty of access to the bag has no bearing whatsoever on whether you call obstruction or not.

Now i believe in FED, it does make a difference - dont know whether they have changed that or not.

Don't have my books here but I believe in OBR, if they play is imminent the fielder has the right to block any or all of the base.

Only if you judge that is where he had to be to field the throw.

Come on jicecone, if you only judged "play is imminent", why not cross check the runner as he's coming back to the base?
The pitcher is throwing over to the base and a play is imminent.

~Sigh~
 

Actually Big jicecone is correct.

Both NCAA and OBR have the umpire judge if a play is imminet.

Professional manuals even define the parameters around "imminet."

We know that NCAA redefined what a first baseman can do on a pick off but all else remains.

T

1st EJ: No brainer. Never take that kind of language from a kid.

2nd EJ: He got personal, but it would only depend on what context the words came from. And I would have likely not even talked to an assistant about the play. I would have stopped the conversation quickly and had the conversation with the HC.

3rd EJ: No problems from me. Get rid of him and if he did not want to be ejected, then say it where you cannot hear him.

Peace

And your problem with allowing a coach to come to his senses or get dumped is what?

I never said anything of the sort.

I would be interested in seeing these parameters.
Does this mean that 1B has free range to purposely obstruct the runner coming back, as long as a play is imminet?
And if so, why dont we see more of it at the MLB level?

Because the runner also has "free range" (sic) to go in spikes first or crash through the fielder to get to the base. And, the fielder will have to bat soon and just might get 5.25 oz @ 90 mph in the ear.

It sounds much more like a teenager, which I guess is a starting point. But I like to use adult terms.

T -

Are you sure about the with respect to NCAA? I agree that imminent is the standard with OBR - but I was under the impression that NCAA is essentially in line with FED (i.e. impedes progress of runner w/o ball).

Thanks - Bob

Hmm,
 

As I noted (poorly, I admit) a pick off at first base is DIFFERENT.

We know that there have been conflicting definitions of "imminet" betwix levels of baseball.

Some codes says, on a play at the plate as example, that the ball simply needs to be inside the infield grass.

Other codes have said "imminet" means that the ball must be approaching the catcher.

This is why some umpires scratch their heads when working multiple codes.

T

[QUOTE=tibear;677251]The 1B Coach and now the manager are done.

Any more coaches left?

RE: Around "my neck of the woods" no ADULT coaches left = game over.

Pete Booth

[QUOTE=PeteBooth;677508]They did have another adult on the bench but the team was done on two counts:
1. They were about to be mercied (down 15 after 5 innings)
2. They didn't have another player on the roster to replace the one ejected, so they couldn't put 9 players on the field.

The coaches were most likely happy to get dumped.

Pete Booth

[QUOTE=tibear;677527]If this is true, how did you get to ejections number 2 and 3... wasn't the game over at ejection 1?

[QUOTE=mbcrowder;677556]
The first two ejections happened very close together (on the same play) and since it was the last at bat, we were going to let them finish their half inning when the third ejection happened.

[QUOTE=tibear;677634]OK, I see ej#2 then... but WHY IN THE WORLD would you stick around to let a team that just took 2 ejections continue playing a game that was over? Seems to me that's begging for problems.

It's never a good idea to continue playing after a game is officially over. There are serious liability concerns.

Please say that again for emphasis in case you weren't heard. NEVER is right. I've caught a little grief for not letting them keep playing after it's over. But it's NEVER NEVER NEVER good to keep officiating when the games over. And if everyone realized this, I would catch less grief! :)

tibear I beat you today.
 

Mark, Jr. (MTD, Jr.) and I umpired a USSSA boys' 12U travel league game (NFHS rules) this afternoon and fun was had by all, :D.

Let me set the stage. Team H(ome) had played host to Team V(isitor) the day before on the very same diamond on which today's game was played. The umpires for that game were assigned by the same H.S. umpires association that assigned MTD, Jr. and I to today's game. And the umpires in yesterday's game ejected Team V's HC in their game. And today's temperature was in the mid-80's by the time the game started.

MTD, Jr., called a long fly ball down the third base line by a Team V batter foul in the first inning that upset HC-V; later in the second inning V's pitcher made a very funky move, which was a balk, and I took a second or two longer than I normally would to call the balk because I had to run a replay of it in my mind a second before I called the balk. He said he knew it was a balk but I needed to call it quicker and that this was the second time in the game that MTD, Jr., and I had screwed up. I told him to keep his comments to himself if he wanted to remain in the game.

Now for the fun part. Top of the fifth, with runners on 2B and 3B with one out. B5 rips a double in the gap to right-center and both runners score and enter the dugout immediately after scoring. Team H's HC then requests timeout from MTD, Jr., to appeal the runner on 2B missing HP. MTD, Jr., knew that the runner had missed HP and called him out. Immediately the HC-V and one of his assistants charge MTD, Jr., from the dugout screaming that HC-H cannot make a DB appeal and that the runner is safe. As I head to the HP area, because I am not going to let my partner get doubled teamed by two coaches, Team V's 3B Coach decides to join the party. When I got to the party, HC-V got in my face and started yelling at me about the DB appeal: Ejection #1. Then dugout AC-V got in my face telling me that I couldn't eject HC-V because we screwed up: Ejection #2. Order was restored but before we could get the ball back AC-V started yelling at us while he was walking to the parking lot, and the 3B Coach for Team V started laughing and yelling to him that he was really funny: Ejection #3.

As one can see, fun was had by all, :D.

MTD, Sr.

Mark,
Couldn't you at least have left one of those three EJ's for MTD Jr.????
I guess Dad is still "quicker on the draw" than the youngster.
Nice job having your partner's back....bet the two of you had a chuckle replaying all that on the ride home.

12 year-olds. Jeez.

It wasn't a very long drive; the park where the game was played is only 1.3 miles from our home, :p. We earned our $40 game fee though.

MTD, Sr.

I guess that the great, know it all, travel ball coaches never read the NHFS rule book, did they? This is one of the reasons I do not officiate travel ball any longer. Dealing with these morons is not worth the meager remittance in my pocket.

USSSA has it's own rule book. Why were they using NFHS - or did you just think they were?

In USSSA (OBR) there are no dead ball appeals. I can see why a USSSA coach would be really POed.

Let me explain further, the league used to be a USSSA travel league and as an umpiring group we can never be sure about these things except that we have been told by the league (shose director is a high school varsity baseball coach) and the teams, which are coached by parents, for the last two years that the league uses NFHS Baseball Rules because the players are going to be playing NFHS when they get to high school and therefore those are the rules they want used.

MTD, Sr.

Rich:

You make a good point about the difference between OBR and NFHS rules. I am sure that many of the posters in the baseball and softball forums know that I am a regular poster in the basketball forum both here and in the NFHS Officials Basketball Forum and that I have officiated both NFHS and NCAA Men's and Women's basketball for over 30 years and was a USA Basketball Referee (FIBA Rules) for 15 years and a basketball rules interpreter and instructional chairman for far more years than I care to remember, and this is a bone of contention with me when it comes to summer baseball.

Lets face it, the vast majority of baseball umpires who umpire at the amatuer level umpire games that use NFHS Rules or should be using NFHS Rules. And while the internet has made it very easy for all of us to get copies of the OBR as well as casebook plays in OBR, 99.9% of our games involve players who are 18U and really should be playing NFHS during the summer because that is what they will be playing when they are in jr. high school and high schoool. I have downloaded copies of the OBR and NCAA baseball rules every year as a reference and really learn about the OBR/NCAA/NFHS differences from reading threads here on Officiatin.com, but lets face it, my baseball umpiring experience and expertise is in NFHS Rules and that is the rule set that youth baseball leagues really should be using.

When it comes to basketball the AAU, YBOA, AYBTour, NYBA, and etc. get one thing right, they use NFHS rules, the exception being AAU girls which uses NCAA Women's (which really is not a problem because the NFHS and NCAA Men's/Wemen's rules are derived from a common rule set: the National Basketabll Committee of the United States and Canada). It would be ludricous for youth basketball to be using NBA/WNBA rules for their summer leagues and tournaments.

Just my two cents.

MTD, Sr.

Rich:

You make a good point about the difference between OBR and NFHS rules. I am sure that many of the posters in the baseball and softball forums know that I am a regular poster in the basketball forum both here and in the NFHS Officials Basketball Forum and that I have officiated both NFHS and NCAA Men's and Women's basketball for over 30 years and was a USA Basketball Referee (FIBA Rules) for 15 years and a basketball rules interpreter and instructional chairman for far more years than I care to remember, and this is a bone of contention with me when it comes to summer baseball.

Lets face it, the vast majority of baseball umpires who umpire at the amatuer level umpire games that use NFHS Rules or should be using NFHS Rules. And while the internet has made it very easy for all of us to get copies of the OBR as well as casebook plays in OBR, 99.9% of our games involve players who are 18U and really should be playing NFHS during the summer because that is what they will be playing when they are in jr. high school and high schoool. I have downloaded copies of the OBR and NCAA baseball rules every year as a reference and really learn about the OBR/NCAA/NFHS differences from reading threads here on Officiatin.com, but lets face it, my baseball umpiring experience and expertise is in NFHS Rules and that is the rule set that youth baseball leagues really should be using.

When it comes to basketball the AAU, YBOA, AYBTour, NYBA, and etc. get one thing right, they use NFHS rules, the exception being AAU girls which uses NCAA Women's (which really is not a problem because the NFHS and NCAA Men's/Wemen's rules are derived from a common rule set: the National Basketabll Committee of the United States and Canada). It would be ludricous for youth basketball to be using NBA/WNBA rules (even though they are not all that different from NFHS and NCAA than some people would think) for their summer leagues and tournaments.

Just my two cents.

MTD, Sr.

Mark I respect your background and your opinion, but you did not answer the question.

Were these USSSA teams really playing under FED rules, or did you just think they should be?

He answered it in post #42.

Yes he did. Read higher.

Read Post #42 for my answer.

MTD, Sr.

Thanks guys for defending my answering the question. :)

MTD, Sr.

[QUOTE=Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.;678189]Mark, Jr. (MTD, Jr.)

From my experience coaches at this level 12U have NO Clue what HS rules are about.

In addition to the DB appeal, just look at the expression on the coaches faces when you invoke the FPSR. They give you that "deer in the headlights" look.

Normally my Plate conference is short and sweet BUT whenever I get travel leagues even in the 14U-15U range that say they play by HS rules I ask them a second time - Are you certain?

Your OP is a CLASSIC example of coaches that do not have a CLUE what HS rules are.

Also, whay was the coach who got dumped in yesterday's game allowed to coach the next day? I beleive USSSA and most FED states have an automatic 1 game suspension attached when you get EJ'd

Pete Booth

I've had fun the past couple of weekends myself. USSSA 16U ball. Same teams play every week, and about 6-8 of our umpires work the games every week. We get to know each other rather well. OBR rules with USSSA mods.

Last weekend I'm the field umpire in a bracket game. Runner at 2nd, one out. Dribbler to the shortstop, and the runner takes off for third. The runner is in the basepath, and the ball, fielder, and runner all converge in the same general area at one time. However, the runner never made any contact with the fielder and never made any other actions that could be classified as interference. Team A's (the fielding team) HC wasn't there the day before, so one of the parents has been filling in, but the HC is there this day just not in the dugout. The parent coaching the team calls time, and respectfully asks why I did not call interference -- saying that the baserunner has to avoid contact with the fielder. I concur, but disagree that any contact was made and add that there were no actions by the runner that could be construed as interference. He seems somewhat upset, but understands and walks back to the dugout. No biggie. Happens all the time.

Next thing I know the Team A HC is yelling "You don't have to have contact to call interference." I of course don't grant him with any type of response because, since he's not a coach in this game -- he's nothing more than a spectator. Plus, he missed 95% of the conversation I had with the acting-coach that day.

This past weekend, Team A's HC is acting as coach. I have the team in a pool play game. I'm in the field again, with a runner on 3rd and one out. Team A is batting. Soft liner right to the pitcher, who makes the catch. Everyone just kind of pauses, then F1 throws the ball to F5 in an attempt to catch R3 off the bag. R3 is clearly out, and I call him as such. It wasn't really that close. Since this is the third out of the inning, I leisurely jog to my mid-inning position towards RF. Team A's dugout is on the 1BL. After I get to my position, I see Team A's HC at the edge of the grass. He says "That wasn't even close." I respond "You're right Coach, it wasn't." He just kind of stands puzzled, then says "Your timing is awful." I just ignore him. He's about 20-25 feet from me, so his dugout can of course hear him. "You need to stop anticipating calls." I say "OK Coach, that's enough." He then says "Your timing is awful." At this point I restrict the coach to the dugout (which I know isn't in OBR rules but the TD has allowed us to do because often times these teams only have one coach). After a couple of minutes, I hear him say something to the effect of "I'm not going anywhere." Should have tossed him. Don't know why I didn't. He just stands there outside of his dugout. I leisurely walk up to my partner, tell him Team A's coach is restricted, and he puts him in the dugout. Wish my partner would have done that on his own, but alas.

The next day I'm scheduled to work his bracket game as the PU. No problems through six innings. In the bottom of the seventh and final inning, he's down 7-6. First batter comes up and works a full count. Pitch comes right across the outer third (not corner) and I ring him up. Kid takes three steps towards the dugout, then turns looks at me and says "WHAT?! THAT WAS THREE FEET OUTSIDE!" Loud enough so that everyone could hear him. I dump him. Then Team A's coach wants to argue about the ejection. Asks what he's ejected for, I said yelling at an umpire about balls and strikes. He then says "Well, what's he ejected for?" I tell him that I've already explained it, and he knows players are not allowed to yell at umpires. He then tries to accuse me of baiting him and his team into ejections. Of course, nothing is further than the truth. My partner (different one) ushers him away. The last two outs are made, and his team loses 7-6.

He's a pretty prominent HC in the area (his team's not all that great, but he's been around here a while), and I'm new here. Only been calling in this area for about a month. All of our umpires in the association agree that we generally don't have any major problems with anybody but this one team and their fans. Their fans are generally terrible and want to chase you off the field. We've come to the determination that it's all because the HC gives the example that any problems that the team suffers (they went 2-20 last year) can be blamed on umpires. Even the kids are starting to bicker now. It's just a shame.

Apart from putting up with all the BS, you might have missed this one.

1. You don't say so, but presumably the defense did not get an out on this play. I'm assuming that because otherwise they wouldn't have complained.

2. I'm concerned with these parts of your post. I think that you're giving the offense too much benefit of the doubt.

The defense has absolute priority on a batted ball. If the runner's presence caused the fielder to hesitate or otherwise disrupted the play, that's sufficient to call INT here.

As you note, contact is not required for INT here. But neither is intent: on a batted ball, the runner might simply be in the wrong place at the wrong time. Indeed, his intent might have been obviously to AVOID interfering, and he could still be guilty of INT on this play.

So it's hard to know based on what you posted, but I suspect that the defense had a legitimate gripe here.

My apologies. I only had two cups of coffee when I posted that. Two more cups later, and by golly, there it was.;)

Why would you say this? I'm sure we've all thought that in our heads... but you don't say it."

Kind of funny here... guess we're just different. I think you should have ignored the first comment. But then he made it personal and was showing you up by continuing to shout at you. I would have ignored the first and given a short concise, "That's enough coach" to this one.

I wish all jurisdictions had this. There are times where an ejection might not be warranted yet but you need to do SOMETHING to head things off - restriction would be perfect for that. Alas...

OMG, absolutely. You can't restrict the guy and then put up with ANYTHING. You just castrated yourself.

Worser and worser... you ABSOLUTELY should have dumped him ... but you didn't... and now your dumping the problem on your partner, who had nothing to do with this situation, and you wish he'd have handled it for you? Egads man.

And I knew that, and the parent-coach and I had that conversation out on the field in a very cordial manner. I didn't mention many of the specifics of our discussion or the play in question because the main point of my post was the Team A coach. The play was just backstory.

This is undoubtedly one of those HTBT plays. There was very definable space, in my opinion, for the fielder to make the play even with the runner in the vicinity. In fact, F6 fielded the ball cleanly but simply didn't make a really strong throw to first so the batter-runner was safe. The bad throw can not be blamed on the runner either, as by this point the runner had already cleared the premises.

I don't think you can stretch "absolute priority" of F6 to such a limit that you completely impede the runners opportunity to make it to a base safely.

All worthy constructive criticism. I completely agree that I should have dumped him when he said he wasn't going anywhere. I'm human, I make mistakes. But I don't think hoping my partner would have helped me is out of line. Just because I made a mistake means my partner has to be of little/no help? Isn't part of being a partner being there to back you up when you make a mistake?

I see your point. Honestly though, I think most umpires would be rather upset if their partner inserted themselves into a situation where they were dealing with a coach. Partner's duty is not to tag-team the coach in this situation... really his only responsibility would be to keep OTHER coaches away should you get approached by more than just the coach you're addressing. Assuming we're not talking about a complete rookie here... and I KNOW you're not ... I think your partner would have been WAY out of place nosing into this situation.

(In fact, I'd go one step further and say that the 2 worst ejections I've ever witnessed both involved a coach "interacting" with one umpire and the OTHER umpire ejecting him.)

Understood. We agree on a lot. :) I agree, if I hadn't already enforced some sort of penalty on the coach and we were just debating, I would have been upset had my partner stepped in.

It's actually been a point of emphasis in this area that once one official (this goes in all sports beyond baseball) initiates a restriction/penalty on a coach such as restrction, technical foul, etc. that the other officials then begin to work with the coach to assess the penalty and to make sure he complies. For example, when one official gives a technical foul he should move away from the coach while another official is entrusted to make sure the coach complies with the seat belt rule. This was mentioned to us as a way to insure that one official can't be seen as the only one that had a problem with the coach. Crew unity, I suppose.

[QUOTE=SouthGARef;678337]

QUOTE]

Your OP is NOT the same thing as YOU mis-interpretting a playing rule or you asking for your partner's help.

You had a problem with the coach so why do you expect your partner who has NOT even entered the conversation to restrict him.

here is what I was taught.

When the coach is arguing with my partner walk towards the conversation - DO NOT ENTER it but simply be an observer. If your partner dumps him then you make certain the coach leaves.

RE: If there is a report written it could be a he said she said situation so to back up my partner I want to make certain what was said so that the EJ report (if it comes to it) is accurately written.

Also, If the coach is hot it's best that you simply tell the coach to leave etc.

HOWEVER,

Do not expect your partner to DUMP OR RESTRICT the coach. That is your job if you so warrant it.

Pete Booth