Bunting (2.00)

changeup · #1 (**permalink**) Tue Sep 17, 2002, 02:19am

Hi guys

Somebody here in Switzerland is saying that under rule (2.00) you do NOT have to pull the bat back on a bunt attempt in order to get a ball.

In other words, you can square, bring the bat the the plate, waiting to bunt, your bat in the strikezone. If the ball misses the strikezone, let's say its too low, and you do not move, you are granted a ball, since you "didn't go after the ball".

I have never ever seen this in any game on this planet. You bunt, you leave the bat where it is and try to bunt it. You see it's a ball, you pull the bat back. That's how I've seen it. You don't pull back, you get a strike, even if you didn't go after the ball and the ball missed the zone.

Any information on this? Does this guy mis-understand that rule? Or is he right?

jimfreeman · #2 (**permalink**) Tue Sep 17, 2002, 05:17am

In 2.00:

Strike(a) - is struck at by the batter & missed. It's a judgement call as to whether or not the batter offered at the pitch. Common practice is that unless the batter makes an effort to meet the ball with the bat he has not offered, ergo no strike unless the ball is in the strike zone.

Bunt - a batted ball not swung at but intentionally met with the bat...... The key words are "intentionally met".

If no effort is made to make contact with a ball outside the strike zone it should be called a ball.

changeup · #3 (**permalink**) Tue Sep 17, 2002, 06:01am

"Common practice is that..."

Well, common practice is that you pull back the bat, right? Or in other words, why pull it back at all? If you're going to get a ball even if you don't move, why pull back and maybe let the fielders know earlier that you are not going to bunt?

Coaches would have to teach the kids: Leave the bat. But every coach teaches you to immediately pull it back... hmm...

It's just that I've never ever seen an Ump call a ball while the batter still was squared and "not going for it".

dave · #4 (**permalink**) Tue Sep 17, 2002, 06:56am

2.00 states strike as "(a) Is struck at by the batter and is missed" If the batter squares to bunt with the bat in the strike zone that is an offer to hit the ball, the batter must "withdraw" that offer to not have a strike called.

PeteBooth · #5 (**permalink**) Tue Sep 17, 2002, 07:16am

Originally posted by dave

2.00 states strike as "(a) Is struck at by the batter and is missed" If the batter squares to bunt with the bat in the strike zone that is an offer to hit the ball, the batter must "withdraw" that offer to not have a strike called.

Dave the aforementioned is a myth not FACT. The key word is OFFER. Also, IMO this question relates more towards players that don't shave rather than players that do.

For the most part you don't see players who shave holding the bat over home-plate and not moving it back, however, simply holding the bat motionless over the plate and not making any attempt to either bunt / hit the ball is not cause for an auromatic strike unless the ball is in the zone.

Now in reality, I find it very difficult for a player who doesn't shave to hold the bat over the plate and not make any movement whatsoever. Coaches should not be teaching this, but it's not our job to coach.

Therefore, in summary, your statement above is NOT TRUE but a myth, however, when B1 simply holds the bat motionless (if possible) over the plate F1 will get the benefit of the doubt.

Pete Booth

Rich Ives · #6 (**permalink**) Tue Sep 17, 2002, 08:53am

The 2002 FED casebook addresses it as follows:

Rule 7.2.1 Situation B: The mere holding of the bat in the strike zone is not an attempt to bunt.

changeup · #7 (**permalink**) Tue Sep 17, 2002, 08:57am

Rich,

what kind of casebook is that? How relevant or acknowledged is it? Can I get the source somewhere online?

Tim C · #8 (**permalink**) Tue Sep 17, 2002, 09:09am

In dealing with international umpiring we do have some difficulties.

The casebook mentioned in The National Federation of High School Case Book that is distributed to certified umpires working high school ball in 46 of the 50 States in America.

No FED books are available on line. They are for sale only through their website.

We have found, when talking with other international umpires, that rules played by FED are so far different than OBR that there is of little value INTERNATIONALLY for the rules.

On this specific rule their reference is EXACTLY correct.

In all codes (rules) in America the interpretation is that a batter must OFFER at a pitch during a bunt. It is much like a "checked swing" except that THERE must be a movement of the bat towards the ball for it to be a strike.

This ruling is confirmed by tradition, common usage, Jakssa/Roder and the JEA. The PBUC manual does not directly speak to this play.

It is a true basball myth that the bat MUST BE pulled back.

And, in answer to your post, I have never seen your view of the ruling called "correctly" anywhere on this planet.

Of course ONLY every other post in this thread has agreed with this ruling. Do you need more information?

Of course I don't work much in Switzerland so it could be different there.

changeup · #9 (**permalink**) Tue Sep 17, 2002, 09:33am

No, that's the point. Switzerland is what the USA was soccerwise, 10 years ago, hehe...

It's pretty underground, we have no professional umps. The responsible persons now suddenly started to come up with some rules that obviously must be true, since they are in the rulebook, but that I haven't seen being calles anywhere.

We don't get Baseball on TV, but alot of us addicts have subscribed to entire pontel-seasons. So we have seen tons of games. Of course we've been to the US many times and seen games life too.

So for our small country, I (and almost every player in the league) find it pretty dumb that a couple of responsible suddenly emerge with such rules and start to strictly enforce them. See, the thing is, they call things like these, or check for inches between pitchers heels and the rubber... but miss basic plays like calling fair/foulballs, call runners out that are being tagged on the chest while their feet have touched 2nd base somewhere during the renaissance and so on.

We find it just stupid to dig out yellowed out rules that obviously nobody is paying attention to on the rest of the globe, then trying to prove "know how" by enforcing them and slowing down the game, aggravating players and so on.

So as I can see, there is literally nobody who would make that call I guess... ("BALL")

Tim C · #10 (**permalink**) Tue Sep 17, 2002, 10:55am

You might find that:

Erick T. Barkhuis -- from The Netherlands

is an EXCELLENT source for emerging umpire groups.

Erick is a well trained, much published, top international umpire.

Erick has his own website and, I believe, would be a wonderful resource to put a stop to some of the nonsense you list.

Erick is available at: [email protected]

GarthB · #11 (**permalink**) Tue Sep 17, 2002, 01:05pm

No, that's the point. Switzerland is what the USA was soccerwise, 10 years ago, hehe...

We have evolved, indeed. Ten years ago soccer seemed only a third rate sport played in third world countries. But today we have found it to be a very useful activity for kids who never learned to catch or throw.

bluezebra · #12 (**permalink**) Tue Sep 17, 2002, 01:40pm

To "offer" means to move the bat in the direction of the ball in an attempt to hit it. Or, in some cases, to distract F2 on an attempted steal.

Bob

changeup · #13 (**permalink**) Wed Sep 18, 2002, 01:23am

Thanks for the information guys.

etbaseball · #14 (**permalink**) Wed Sep 18, 2002, 02:15am

Changeup -

I really wish not to cloud the point being made about a batter having to "OFFER" at a pitched ball while in the process of, or preparing to bunt. OFFERING is certainly the critera that one judges when ruling strike or ball. However, there will be times when no noticeable "offering" is being made but the ball passes extremely close to the bat. 99.9% of the time the pitched ball will probably be in the strike zone and therefore judged a "called" strike, rather than an attempt.

Umpiring is all about making judgements. In most contests an umpire earns his/her fee on just a handful of calls. Most of the required calls are 'no brainers.' Watch the reaction of the batter as the ball approaches the bat. You will either detect an attempt to contact the ball, or no attempt. Simply call it as you see it. Many umpires, myself included, declare (audibly for all to hear) "Yes! That's an attempt," or "Yes, he did,"(offer) while pointing at the batter. Usually this pro-active declaration demonstrates confidence in the decision process. Here it's refered to as "selling the call." If the pitched ball is a marginal strike, and the batter doesn't move the bat whatsoever, give the benefit of doubt to the pitcher and declare a "called" strike.

There will be times when searching for the correct judgemnt is difficult, but not rendering a judgement or delivering a bad judgement will motivate you to seek out a different sport to officiate. Remember, the harder you work at it, the better you'll get. Good, better, best; never let it rest, until the good gets better and the better gets best.