Balk???

[alillard88]

Had a sitch last night and I was unsure which of us was correct. OBR Rules. Runner on second, pitcher in stretch position. He whirls to throw to second and as he whirls, he falls and he hits the ground. He held onto the ball, but it hit the ground while he was in possession of it as he fell. My plate umpire called a balk. I did not feel it was but was not sure enough to have a conference. Of course, the defensive coaches questioned it, but accepted his explanation.

[Tim C]

I am TRYING not to type those famous words.

T

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by alillard88

Had a sitch last night and I was unsure which of us was correct. OBR Rules. Runner on second, pitcher in stretch position. He whirls to throw to second and as he whirls, he falls and he hits the ground. He held onto the ball, but it hit the ground while he was in possession of it as he fell. My plate umpire called a balk. I did not feel it was but was not sure enough to have a conference. Of course, the defensive coaches questioned it, but accepted his explanation.

This is not a balk. As Tim C will tell you, "It's impossible to balk to second base."

Had F1 fallen before spinning, you might have something. But I would have told the PU that once F1 steps toward 2B in any fashion, his subsequent fall is legal, as is the ball coming loose.

[ozzy6900]

Originally Posted by alillard88

Had a sitch last night and I was unsure which of us was correct. OBR Rules. Runner on second, pitcher in stretch position. He whirls to throw to second and as he whirls, he falls and he hits the ground. He held onto the ball, but it hit the ground while he was in possession of it as he fell. My plate umpire called a balk. I did not feel it was but was not sure enough to have a conference. Of course, the defensive coaches questioned it, but accepted his explanation.

And the defensive coaches probably also thing that the hands are part of the bat! Just for the hell of it, was F1 gaining distance and direction toward 2nd base as he was falling?

[alillard88]

I was thinking the same as mbyron. He had definitely already turned toward second. It was one of those times where I just did not have a good enough feeling about what I remembered to approach U1. His rationale was that the ball touched the ground after being in the set position.

[Tim C]

"His rationale was that the ball touched the ground after being in the set position."

OK, got me. I did not know that was illegal UNLESS the ball was dropped?

Just remember:

It Is Impossible To Balk To An Occupied Second Base.

T

[Robert E. Harrison]

As the pitcher is turning to 2nd base the ball pops out and both feet are on the ground (gaining distance and direction with non pivot) before the ball hits the ground?

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Robert E. Harrison

As the pitcher is turning to 2nd base the ball pops out and both feet are on the ground (gaining distance and direction with non pivot) before the ball hits the ground?

Then it's a step and he's complied with the requirement. The rest is just an awkward feint.

[TussAgee11]

I see how you're right on this T, what I listed are other things that are balks no matter if 2nd base is involved or not. How about this rule:

The act of F1 making a move to an occupied 2nd base can never, by itself, be a balk.

[Tim C]

Like I freakin' care what "Mr. Umpire" thinks . . . he has documented his ignorance mant times.

" . . . as to start a turn toward 2B. His feet never moved, he did not step toward 2B. Rules . . .

That sounds like a balk . . . a balk for failing to deliver the pitch.

Mbyron understands the statement better than many:

All the things list by Tuss are obviously balks. But none would be strictly defined as a balk to second base.

Umpires such as Finnerty and "Mr. Umpire" need to take a pill and settle down.

As a teaching device saying it is impossible to balk to an occupied second base sets the thought that a base (other than first) has little (or nothing) to do with balking to that base.

"Mr. Umpire" makes me very happy that he has blocked my posts . . . in fact I couldn't be happier.

I like to share in formation with "real" umpires.

Kevin, I called Ken Burns and got authorization to post the items above.

T

[TussAgee11]

It is totally possible to balk on a move to second base.

1) RHP F1 in windup. Bases loaded. He drops a heel and then turns and steps directly to 2nd. Balk. Started and stopped.

2) RHP F1 in set. He raises free foot, brings it down, and makes contact with the dirt on the homeplate side of the rubber, then scrapes it over the rubber in his step. Balk. No step.

3) RHP F1 in windup with R2 only. Begins normal pitching motion, free foot comes back, then up, and now he realizes he's pitching in the windup with just R2. He steps to 2nd. Balk. Started and stopped.

I could come up with more. Yes, as a general rule, its rare and requires some unusual circumstances. But things happen. Never say never.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by TussAgee11

It is totally possible to balk on a move to second base.

1) RHP F1 in windup. Bases loaded. He drops a heel and then turns and steps directly to 2nd. Balk. Started and stopped.

2) RHP F1 in set. He raises free foot, brings it down, and makes contact with the dirt on the homeplate side of the rubber, then scrapes it over the rubber in his step. Balk. No step.

3) RHP F1 in windup with R2 only. Begins normal pitching motion, free foot comes back, then up, and now he realizes he's pitching in the windup with just R2. He steps to 2nd. Balk. Started and stopped.

I could come up with more. Yes, as a general rule, its rare and requires some unusual circumstances. But things happen. Never say never.

As you've shown yourself, none of these is balking TO second base.

[TussAgee11]

I am just saying that declaring "it is impossible to balk to 2nd base" might be a bit misleading for somebody who is coming on here to learn, that's all. They may think no matter what the pitcher does, if he ends up going to 2nd, he's fine.

That's all. Its just how people may view the semantics of it.

[alillard88]

I really appreciate all the input. It is probably one of those situations I will never see again, but if I do, I will have more confidence in my opinion.

On a side note, I do not post often, but I do read this site religiously and have become a better umpire and basketball official as a result. Thanks

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by TussAgee11

That's all. Its just how people may view the semantics of it.

Although that's true, semantics always determines meaning, so it's not terribly informative.

I believe Tee's point in intoning that it's impossible to balk to (an occupied) second base is to encourage newer umpires to realize that virtually any move to 2B is legal, in contrast to 1B.