Asking for Help
 

Basketball official curious as to how baseball umps deal with the "ask for help" issue.

Bang bang play at 1B with the throw to the outfield side of the base. 2 man crew. Base ump calls runner out. Base coach says "his foot was off the base - can you ask for help." Ump asks for help and the home plate umpire calls the runner safe.

Is this standard procedure/acceptable?

I won't listen to the base coach. Typically I will own my call at 1B if I'm BU...not to proud to say I'll never ask...but probably not in this situation.

Spence,

No, that is not quite the standard procedure/acceptable.

The "unacceptable" part is that the original calling umpire ALWAYS makes/announces the "final call".

There are basically two schools of thought on the question you pose.

A. If the BU did not see what he needed to to make the call, he should not make a call. He should immediately go to his partner (assuming he wasn't otherwise occupied) and say, "John! Did he have the bag?", to which the reply would be "Pat, YES. He KEPT the bag!" after which Pat crisply punches out the runner and we go to our respective positions.

B. Just use ALL the evidence available and make your best call like you've never been more sure of anything in your life. Then, IF a coach comes out to talk to you, and he's being reasonable, and your partner wasn't otherwise occupied, and he asks if you could check with your partner, and you feel like it, you say, "Sure, Matt. Give me a minute and I''l go check with him." Then you go find out what your partner had, decide if you want to change your call, and then go tell everybody. It is considered "courteous" to notify the offended coach ahead of "announcing" your decision if you do decide to change your call.

JM

Thanks, JM.

Doesn't "B" set you up to be questioned on any close play? I agree with asking for help in A but I think B sets you up for a lot of conversations. If I'm the ump and I "saw what I saw" and wasn't obstructed why would I open a can of worms?

Spence,

Good question.

That's why I put all the "ands" in. Most of the time a coach asks me if I would get help, I just tell him, "No, Bob, I saw everything I needed to."

But every now and then you get straightlined or your vision gets obstructed and you make a call. You can tell by the reaction of the team that benefited that you DID "kick it". Your partner is trying to make eye contact and keeps taking his hat off. The coach asks for time, and politely and without insulting you asks if you would mind checking with your partner.

Sometimes it's the right thing to do.

Oh, and on a check swing appeal request, I ALWAYS go to my partner.

JM

Thanks. Good info.

One more scenario: Tag play. You ring up the runner. Other coach yells "he dropped the ball." You didn't see him drop it. Do you ask your partner?

Coach "yells" = I don't hear so well.

Coach talks politley = I'll be happy to oblige your request (generally speaking)

You said that the coach yells "he dropped the ball" - probably not getting much response

Other than that, JM's response still holds true.

Spence,

The sitch you describe is one of "the NCAA seven" AND "the MLBUM six" - situations where the non-calling umpire may offer his unsolicited input if he is 110% certain that the ball was not securely possessed through the tag AND his partner did not see it come loose. It is still the calling umpire's responsibility to decide whether or not he wants to change his call.

If a coach asks me to check with my partner in this sitch, I just say, "I already did."

JM

Basketball official here as well. Would you mind spelling out what are the 7 situations for NCAA and 6 for MLB?

Geez,

Don't you basketball guys know how to look stuff up? :rolleyes:

The NCAA 7:

The MLBUM 6:

JM

You are going to "own" that call. It is one thing if you are in the B or C... but you are standing right there. You cannot ask your partner to bail you out on that one.

Gads, I hate the new "officiating"
 

Why, why, why would any official ask "for help"?

Over 40 years of umping I had "all lmy own calls" . . .

Do we need a "group hug"?

Get your own calls . . . !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

TC

I think becase we have evolved to realize that we are not perfect. We owe it to kids and coaches who have a little more skin in the game than we do, to get it right and not make the game about us. It isn't a sign of weakness to ask for help in the right situations. I am not bigger than the game.

"Get your own calls": an excellent goal, and one I strive for every game.

I have yet to call a runner out when the ball is rolling away on the ground: I make my share of mistakes, but you have to see the ball before banging the out.

I had a partner on Saturday, however, who was calling outs before the tags. He set himself up for some out/safes, and if he hadn't switched to safe with the ball rolling away, I would have helped.

In sum:
"Get your own calls": a good motto for each individual umpire.

"Get it right": a good motto for the crew as a whole.

Well said!;)

~Sigh~
 

I "owe" only that there be a level playing field for the game.

As it has been said many times before: "If players and coaches didn't lie and cheat you wouldn't need officials."

Few high school ages players have invested "more skin" than the guys I umpire with . . .

T

I agree with your first statement...we are saying the same thing.

I think that kids who work out daily, spend countless hours in the cage, travel to summer games, and are dedicated to being their best do have more skin than I do. I dedicate a fair amount of my time and energy, but not 4-5 hours a day to officiating. Obviously, a coach who's job depends on wins and losses has a fair amount at stake as well.

I'm not going to have a policy that assumes that I'm infallible. I'm going to be confident, do my best, and apply my knowledge of the game and the rules to my calls. But to say that my partner can't ever help me is, in my opinion, elevating me to some sort of God-like being. I can own my calls, but I can ask for help in certain circumstances and still be a very strong official.

First, you want to make sure you check for firm and secure possesion before you make your call. There are certain situations, however, where you just can't see the bobble and then the player comes up and shows you the ball. This is unavoidable for the most part, and it is just part of the game.

This philosophy would be great if officials took it to heart and asked questions of partners when the question was truly required.

I've had this happen twice in 20 years. Once I had F4 run in front of me for the "money shot" at first base and the other time F1 short-hopped F3 on a comebacker and I couldn't tell if the fielder had control of the ball (I was lazy and that one was avoidable and a lesson for me). So once in 20 years I really felt I *needed* help. I see some people exceed that in a single *game*.

Unfortunately, the attitudes I see from umpires in a lot of games is that the coach comes out and asks the umpire to "get help" and the umpire simply doesn't have the stones to refuse or thinks it's rude to do so. What those umpires don't realize is that (1) the coach doesn't care about "getting it right", they care about getting it their way and (2) it's our job to put ourselves in the best position to make the call, make it, and have the intestinal fortitude to stick with it.

I worked with a guy a few years ago who, on a grounder while he was in the C position, didn't move to make the call at first. Three times he came to me for help on plays at first base because of his poor base work. I am convinced that on just about every play at first base, the base umpire can put himself in a great position to see what needs to be seen. Angles first, then distance. Don't be afraid to run. Adjust to a poor throw with a step or two and a lean.

The problem is that too many umpires (1) don't know how to work the bases and (2) act as though they can always go to the plate umpire for help on that "tricky" pulled foot, swipe tag, or other such squirrels.

And of course, once the base umpire goes for help, it's open season on such requests and the coaches will *never* stay in the dugout. They'll be out on everything close, trying to shop the call to the most advantageous bidder.

Gotta tell 'ya, the only time I asked for help from my partner was when I was having a heart attack on the field.

1. You get in position to see the play.
2. You see the entire play from start to finish.
3. You find the ball so you see if thee was control or not.
4. You make the call.

It's called 1 play - 1 call. If you are doing your job correctly (it takes time to learn), when a coach approaches you to ask for help, you just tell him, "John, if I needed help to make the call, I would have asked for it before I made the call. Let's play ball, John." and hustle into position.

I agree that umpires need to have the gonads to basically say "no" to the coach but the umpire needs to be in position and properly trained. Going out there and expecting your partner to be "your backup" is not how you approach officiating. In the rare instance where you need to meet and discuss a ruling or call, that is acceptable (as noted previously from NCAA & MLBUM).

Pussy.

OK, that's twice now I've had to scold you for not using a smilie. You're going to give him another heart attack. :eek:

Why, why, why?

Umpiring has changed a little in 40 years, and it's more important to get a call right than to further the illusion that the individual umpire is imperious and infallible.

The players on the field work the hardest of anyone involved in putting on a baseball game. They deserve to have the calls be correct, irrespective of the level of personal pride in each umpire. If it takes consulting with a second party who sometimes has a better view, or a view of something that makes the result of the play different, then it should be done.

It should also be a rare occurrence.

If you honestly think that, then you need to be a lot more open. There is virtually no umpire who works harder each week and works more hours each week on and off the field than the average player.

You can umpire more years than you can play, but the hardest worker on any baseball field is the player. No one else comes close.

P.S. Billken, you said it best, but only after I posted my similar response did I see yours. ;)

I'm guessing those that won't ever get help have never worked two man on the 60' diamond. Seeing a pulled foot at first from deep C ain't easy, and may be the toughest call in organized baseball. And if you work with a good parnter, he's looking right down the barrel of it.

Man, I have no trouble asking for help when I'm out there. None. Just be decent about it.

That said, if I'm on top if it, I've got no trouble shooing a guy back to the dugout.

Hehehehe
 

Kevin:

I am glad that you are continuing to umpire. I have never drank the koolaid under "get the call correct at all costs" system. And now I don't have too.

I was much happier when umpires were required to umpire.

Group hugs aren't my style.

T

Thank you Tim, was waiting to read that.

Its' BU's call at first, make it.

There are a few situations (a tag attempt) where BU might need to ask did he tag (Coach outlined in A how to do that properly), but that should be very rare.

And I would add, that would be when BU might be in the B or C position and F3 makes the tag blocking the view.

Thanks
David

I had this exact call last year as BU. Swinging bunt down 1B line, I was in C, I had F1, B/R, F3 all in one area, I could not see the tag...it sure looked like there was one...but didn't want to guess...so I asked PU. His view was unobstructed.

I am not a big fan of going for help but occasionally I will if I think I missed something. It happens once or twice a season at most. I had two interesting "help" situations in a game two weeks ago. My partner's mechanics were a little weak and I think it contributed greatly to the help or lack there of. First play involved a pickoff of R2 after a foul ball. I had no idea if my partner had put the ball back in play because he was not very demonstrative. After the tag and second, which got the runner easily, I made no call. I turned to my partner and asked "Did you have the ball in play" and he said "yes". I turned around and emphatically called R2 out.

The second was just poor play and some weak mechanics. High pop fly between 3B and HP that was tracking the line. F1 and F5 are jockeying for the ball and both miss it. My partner can see the ball land in fair territory and then bounce foul but he can't see if either fielder makes contact with the ball over fair territory. I was in C and 90 degrees to the play and could clearly see neither fielder touch it. He could have easily pointed at me and said "Do you have a touch (or contact)" and I would have said "No". The foul call could have been emphatic at that point. Instead, we had a bunch of coaches and players scratching their heads for 30 seconds or so trying to figure out what happened. My partner finally made a weak foul call which he later admitted was way to weak and the timing was poor..

Oh well....

Yes, it worked that time, but I had game last week, same type of play, but I'm PU and have R3 coming home.

BU makes what looks like right call with me having to stay at the plate, but coach asks and here comes BU asking me for help.

I told him between later, you have to know the situation and make your own call, i have other responsibilities.

Thanks
David

I had a base partner call a runner out on a back pick at third. The throw beat the runner by six feet and F5 slapped the tag down on his back and my partner enthusiastically banged him out. He then turned away and walked a few feet and took his position. Except, the ball was lying on the ground. While shocked onlookers were voicing their disputes, my partner looked at me with that was-the-ball-really-on-the-ground look, and I nodded gently and pointed to the ground. My partner said, "Runner, stay at third, the ball was on the ground and the runner is safe!"

He had no ego and the eventual call was right. The game went smoothly, because the game's fairness took a front seat to the umpires' egos.

Originally Posted by ozzy6900 http://forum.officiating.com/images/...s/viewpost.gif
Gotta tell 'ya, the only time I asked for help from my partner was when I was having a heart attack on the field.
Yeah, I was weak that time, but the first time, I was able to call 911 myself! He, he, he! :D

Way to stay out there Oz.

I almost never ask for help, not because I'm philosophically opposed to it, but because I'm never sure if the PU is even looking at my play. I have my responsibilities and he has his, why do I assume he's looking at my responsibility.

If I kick it, I just need to work harder.

And you need to have a higher devotion to getting the calls right. All the calls. Sometimes that requires help.

Ive had two, one on a DP ball. First game of the season, diving stop by F4, and a throw to 2B, F6 calmly shuffles over to 2B slides across the base with his pivot foot, plants it about 2' off , catches the ball, then fires to 1B.
In processing what I had just saw, I emphatically gave the safe sign with an off the base move, I never once followed the throw to first, actually I never even thought about it, I was reprocessing what I had just seen on my first call of the year. So in that case I had to ask.

The other was a bunt. Left handed batter bunts up the 1B line, ball took a high hop off of the plate, hits the ground and bounces again probably 6' up the line, runner runs into the ball. Where I made a mistake was, that I assumed it hit him in fair territory, because at the instant he contacted the ball (with his chest) i simply lined up the direction of the ball in relation with the line. I called time and called the runner out. O-manager calls time comes out and asks if I will go for help, he thinks it was foul when the runner contacted the ball. no problem, go to 1B ump "charles where was the ball when the runner contacted it" foul he says, "are you 100% sure" no 110% he says.

So the moral of the story is "dont put yourself in a situation to have to go for help"
I put myself in both situations and had to go for help!

The classic three are, dropped ball, missed tag and pulled foot. If you're working two man, there are situations where you have the worst view on the field, but you still own the call. If you've ever worked the small field, and got backed up by a ground ball to short, and had to make that call at first, you know what I'm talking about. F3's foot could be 6" off the bag, and you have no way of telling. None.

Really, really sharp umpires, with similar partners, will get help BEFORE the call it. "Mike! Was he on the bag!?" That's rare, and I'm lucky enough to work with a few guys like this. But if I'm hung out in deep C, and a manager asks me to get help on the pulled foot, a missed swipe tag, of course I'll ask PU for info. That's just common sense.

The danger in asking for help on calls is that managers will expect you to ask for help on rountine bangers. That's not going to happen.

I had a manager last night, away from the field, ask me why one of my umpires wouldn't get help on call like I described above. So I asked him what he asked the umpire. He just said to him "Can you get help on that?", and my 12 year old BU said no, it was his call to make. I told the manager that next time he should say "I think the first baseman pulled his foot, can you ask the PU for help?". The key is what the manager requests of you. They've got to be specific in their request. That's what I've taught my kids.

Great post, Kyle.

Why?

I work a bit in the tournaments on a small diamond and I treat it no differently than the big diamonds. I get an angle to see the foot / tag best I can and I make the call. It's my call. If I don't go into it thinking that the plate guy can bail me out, I'm more likely going to work harder to get the right look.

The coaches asking to "get help" on every close play isn't a real effort to "get more calls right." It's an effort to get more calls go their way. Most times, the coach himself has a worse view than the base umpire in the small diamond C position. He's in the 3rd base box. At least 95% of the pulled foot requests I hear involve plays where the fielder stretches, holds the bag, and comes off right after the catch. The umpire looks at the foot, the coach does not and only sees the foot away from the bag a second or two later. Why should I appease him when I *saw* the foot on the bag. And yet I'm "arrogant" if I don't "get help."

If I truly think I need help, I will get it without hesitation. I officiate basketball and I probably go to a partner on an out-of-bounds call on my line at least once a game (and that's with 3 officials). I just don't think that a coach asking is enough for me to go and ask. I truly need to think I may not have seen something, and frankly that doesn't happen very often.

How do you get "backed up"? I move towards third on this play, opening up a better angle on the play at first. I see too many guys move towards second (straight-lining them) or trying to get to the infield grass (and then giving up because the fielder and/or runner is in the way).

Angles can be gotten. Sometimes putting yourself farther away gives you a better angle.

1. Getting help before making a call in not a mechanic I've seen taught anywhere. There has to be a call made before an "appeal" for help.

2. A study was posted on this site a few years back that indicated that video replays showed when ML umpires got help on a call, the revised call was wrong as often as right, thus overturning a correct call.

3. On most plays there should not be two sets of eyes on the same play.

4. Going to your partner assumes he had a better view despite his distance and other reponsibilities.

5. Study mechanics and angles and increase your mobility and you won't need to get help at first.

Unless, in some rare instances, you want to get the call correct, rather than further this illusion that you are imperious and irreproachable.

This could possibly qualify as the weakest, most absurd thing you have ever posted. Are you joking? It's hard to tell, because you didn't use one of those little winky faces.

A study ... on a web site ... wrong as often as right?

That is funny stuff. Especially considering that you're serious.

Re 5.: Trust me, I'm pretty up on how things go on the 60' field.

Two man mechanics, on a LL field, require the BU to be behind the shortstop in a lot of situations. Bullets hit to F6 sometimes get the BU caught behind him, with no time to get an angle. A good PU will look down the line for a pulled foot when the BU is in C, on the little field. And yeah. the PU has a much better view of a heal being off the bag, than a guy in the grass behind the shortstop.

Hey, don't argue with Mr. Umpire. After all, he's, well, Mr. Umpire.

I don't buy this. I always have time to take a step or two towards third to get an angle on the heel.

Have an issue with anonymous user names? Wouldn't be the same Kyle_ from eteamz, would it?

Oh, and this one is MrUmpire. Not, Mr Umpire or mr umpire or even, Mr_Umpire from other sites. I think you have him mixed up with someone else. :D

And how many steps do you take to get an angle on a swipe tag with the runner between you and the actual tag?

I mean, to get the call right.

I've been on Al Gore's Internet since it's inception. Back when it was just a few of us linked up to Berkeley, and few other locations. One thing I can tell is that nobody is anonymous out there. That's why I just use my name. And yeah, I'm the same screwball that's on eteamz.

I just find using the handle "Mr. Umpire" on an umpire site funny, that's all.

And I don't doubt that. Heck, I haven't been hit on my plate shoes in a couple of years either. Doesn't mean it can't happen.

But I've had times where I've been to the left of the shortstop, and had a scorching one hopper hit right between us. He goes left, and I can't go right, because he might miss it. It happens. You just do your best out there.

There's this professional comedian (big name, but not huge), who plays catcher in a local MSBL Sunday league. He's as serious a player as there is, and doesn't really come out with much humor during the games. But his trademark is that he unfailingly addresses me (and the others) as "Mr. Umpire." ("Where was that, Mr. Umpire?" ... "Thank you, Mr. Umpire." ... "Good game, Mr. Umpire.")

It sounds funny even there.

Sorry for the misunderstanding. I was not referring to the 60' field.

Exactly.

No worries. Calls are MUCH easier on the inside of the diamond, and it's quite rare to need help from there. Maybe on a swipe tag every four or five years.

Thank you. I don't post on any other site. and "Mr Umpire" is a very common and polite reference to umpires in my area and is preferred by most umpires over "blue".

As far as being anonymous: Some know me. I've been around long enough and have, from time to time, used my real name in posts.

I don't particularly like being called Mr. Umpire or Blue, but that's just me...if they're going to put in the work to call me, I'd prefer they simply use my first name. I know others prefer something else...but I strongly dislike Blue and Mr. Umpire...seems, well, rather impersonal.

That's good because according to ORB, you have too.

If a manager calls me Blue, Mr. Umpire, ( do like Your Majesty, though) or any other standard moniker, it just means they didn't bother to remember my name at the plate meeting. If they use "Hey Kyle,....", it meant they were paying attention, and my plate meeting wasn't a waste of time. To me, it means something.

I suppose you mean OBR. In FED there's no such requirement, so it's saying something when JM announces that he always checks.

I am old school with a new school feel. I cannot stand the "get it right at all cost" philosophy. It drives me crazy that umpires every situation feel they need to ask for help. No other sport spends that much time trying to get help on every situation. For one we are not always looking at the same thing and we should not be looking at the same time. And I am with Rich, I hate umpires that cannot refuse a request for "help" from a coach. When it is not appropriate or I know my partner cannot help, I am not asking for help. And yes I have refused requests for checked swings when it is obvious there was no such call that needs to be made. But then again I do not do what the pack does and some reason I have been fine most of my career. We worry way too much about what coaches think when they clearly have an agenda.

Peace

Good point. Too many umpires that I run into spend way too much time worrying about what a "coach" wants.

A coach only wants a couple things, to win and get the next call to go his way.

thanks
David

Had this happen over the weekend:

NFHS Rules. Im in B, R1, no outs. Double play ground ball to SS. 1B makes a modest stretch and catches the ball. There is no off-line throw or anything else. Call at 1B seems pretty straightforward and from where I am. On the way back to A, 1B coach asks for an appeal to my partner. What exactly do you say and how do you handle an assistant asking for an appeal? Hows something along the lines of "an appeal has to come from HC, if one is requested."

Look at him funny and ignore him. ;)

Peace

IMO, this is an art. Some people like to pretend that ASSt. coaches don't exist; this has not worked for me, and around here umpires are expected to interact with ASSt. coaches.

What I say often depends on how the coach asks me. If he's shouting, I'll tend to ignore him and look over at the head coach (usually in the 3rd base coaching box or the dugout) and see whether he has a question about the play. If he persists, I'll tell him that the head coach isn't concerned, and we're going to play ball. Otherwise, I'll answer the head coach.

If the question is quiet and respectful, I'll generally answer it on my way back to my position: "That's my call all the way, and I saw the whole play; if I needed help, I would have already asked for it."

The seen and not heard philosophy is basically what you just said most people do that I know. We only ignore the AC when they are acting like a fool and the HC is saying little or nothing. Or if the HC and the AC is going crazy, we only address the HC. In other words, I am not having multiple discussions with multiple people. The HC is the main person in charge (which the rule makes even clearer) and that is usually the reason most umpires/officials decide not to pay much attention to ACs in the first place. It does not literally mean that people totally ignore a coach that is very respectful and doing their job. Some ACs are the ones that communicate certain issues with an umpire and that is totally appropriate.

Peace