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-   -   Batter Hit By Throw while running out of three foot zone. (https://forum.officiating.com/baseball/57182-batter-hit-throw-while-running-out-three-foot-zone.html)

Rich Ives Sun Feb 21, 2010 02:17pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by urgone (Post 663512)
I was going to ask this question in another thread but I'll just add it on here.
I gave a presentation at a winter baseball clinic recently on the running lane. I used alot of the material in Carl Childress(my personal umpiring hero) 2004
book The Usual Suspects. That material talks about the running lane being created in 1882 and that at the time the foul line ran directly through the middle of both first & third base.
Two questions for someone who has the knowledge:
1) When was the foul line(actually fair line) moved to the edge of the base?
2) When they did that did they compensate for the 90 degree angle at home
and move second to keep the diamond a perfect square?
The didn't move the line - they moved the base bag - which makes Q2 moot.

greymule Sun Feb 21, 2010 02:18pm
TussAgee11: Well, you said, "or any other base," and the J/R (in the specific case of BR INT before reaching 1B, not in the case of generic INT by a runner) restricts the intervening play to a failed attempt to get the runner from 3B scoring.

It's not likely to happen, but if the batter bunted, the defense played on R2 at 3B but R2 was safe, and then the BR interfered with the throw and was out before reaching 1B, R2 would have to return to 2B.

Paul L Sun Feb 21, 2010 03:58pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by urgone (Post 663512)
1) When was the foul line(actually fair line) moved to the edge of the base?
2) When they did that did they compensate for the 90 degree angle at home and move second to keep the diamond a perfect square?
1) 1887. "When the National League and American Association used the same rules starting in 1887, two changes took place. Third and first bases moved seven and one half inches, toward second base, so that they were entirely in fair ground. Also the 30 yard mark fell upon the back rear corner first and third base." Baseball History: 19th Century Baseball: The Field: Evolution of the Bases and Foul Lines

2) No. "The first and third base bags shall be entirely within the infield. The second base bag shall be centered on second base." OBR 1.06. So the base points are a perfect 90 foot square, but the centerfield corner of the second base bag is ~10.6 inches hopefully East-Northeast of the second base point.

urgone Sun Feb 21, 2010 08:51pm
Not to be picky here...I'm just mathematically curious. So the perfect 90 degree square goes from the apex of home to the back right corner of first to the exact middle of second base to the back left corner of third? Interesting that it is 90 feet from the apex to the BACK of first or third but 90 feet to second is to the MIDDLE of the bag. I'm wondering if that is because when they moved first & third in 1887 they left second where it was.

TussAgee11 Sun Feb 21, 2010 10:25pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by greymule (Post 663516)

It's not likely to happen, but if the batter bunted, the defense played on R2 at 3B but R2 was safe, and then the BR interfered with the throw and was out before reaching 1B, R2 would have to return to 2B.
I just don't understand why it would be different just because the base changed. What makes home any different than third?

Not disputing your claim, if J/R differentiates fine. What language do they use? If they are just using the home to first play as their example, it doesn't mean it theoretically can't happen elsewhere, even if its not practical as the play you described above.

Paul L Sun Feb 21, 2010 10:25pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by urgone (Post 663606)
Not to be picky here...I'm just mathematically curious. So the perfect 90 degree square goes from the apex of home to the back right corner of first to the exact middle of second base to the back left corner of third? Interesting that it is 90 feet from the apex to the BACK of first or third but 90 feet to second is to the MIDDLE of the bag. I'm wondering if that is because when they moved first & third in 1887 they left second where it was.
Yup and yup. Follow the link for a fascinating discussion of the historical details.

TussAgee11 Sun Feb 21, 2010 10:28pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by urgone (Post 663606)
Not to be picky here...I'm just mathematically curious. So the perfect 90 degree square goes from the apex of home to the back right corner of first to the exact middle of second base to the back left corner of third? Interesting that it is 90 feet from the apex to the BACK of first or third but 90 feet to second is to the MIDDLE of the bag. I'm wondering if that is because when they moved first & third in 1887 they left second where it was.
Yes, if you drew a perfect square it would hit back right corner of first, middle of second, and back left corner of third. It is because 2nd was never moved when 1st and 3rd were.

rbmartin Sun Feb 28, 2010 04:51pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich Ives (Post 662335)
RTFM

Rule 2.00 (Interference) Comment: In the event the batter-runner has not reached first base, all runners shall return to the base last occupied at the time of the pitch.
Is rule 6.05k officially "interference"? Does Riches' reference apply here? I think it probably does but when I brought this up a few months ago, some disagreed.

UmpJM Sun Feb 28, 2010 05:05pm
rbmartin,

Yes, a "runner's lane interference" is officially interference.

Rich's cite applies unless the defense has attempted an "intervening play" prior to the interference.

"Some" were incorrect.

JM

cviverito Mon Mar 01, 2010 10:09am
Quote:
Originally Posted by urgone (Post 663512)
Two questions for someone who has the knowledge:
1) When was the foul line(actually fair line) moved to the edge of the base?
2) When they did that did they compensate for the 90 degree angle at home
and move second to keep the diamond a perfect square?
1. Not sure. But I do know the line went from corner to corner when it split the bag. Just curious - why do you want to know?

2. No. The new layout eliminated the "perfect diamond" or square. The diamond is now a bit out of whack geometrically (technically speaking).

UmpJM Mon Mar 01, 2010 11:56am
chris,

Technically speaking, the rule book infield is STILL a perfect geometric square.

JM

mbyron Mon Mar 01, 2010 12:17pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by UmpJM (nee CoachJM) (Post 665506)
chris,

Technically speaking, the rule book infield is STILL a perfect geometric square.

JM
What throws some people off is that the pitcher's plate is NOT on the diagonal.

Rich Ives Mon Mar 01, 2010 12:22pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by cviverito (Post 665496)
1. Not sure. But I do know the line went from corner to corner when it split the bag. Just curious - why do you want to know?

2. No. The new layout eliminated the "perfect diamond" or square. The diamond is now a bit out of whack geometrically (technically speaking).
No, the infield is a perfect square - by rule. The actual base is the point on the ground at the corners of the square.

See 1.04 When location of home base is determined, with a steel tape measure 127 feet, 3⅜ inches in desired direction to establish second base. From home base, measure 90 feet toward first base; from second base, measure 90 feet toward first base; the intersection of these lines establishes first base. From home base, measure 90 feet toward third base; from second base, measure 90 feet toward third base; the intersection of these lines establishes third base.

Home plate and the bags are markers for the bases, and are positioned differently at the different corners.

1.05 Home base shall be marked by a five-sided slab of whitened rubber. . . It shall be set in the ground with the point at the intersection of the lines extending from home base to first base and to third base;

1.06 First, second and third bases shall be marked by white canvas bags, securely attached to the ground as indicated in Diagram 2. The first and third base bags shall be entirely within the infield. The second base bag shall be centered on second base.


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