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-   -   To uphold or deny? (https://forum.officiating.com/baseball/57080-uphold-deny.html)

bossman72 Fri Feb 12, 2010 10:55am
Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins (Post 661123)
Take the same play (remember starting with R3), but when R3 overruns third, the defense makes a move to tag him. R3 runs directly to second, reaches it and is standing on the base when the defense tags him. Now what's your ruling?

Me? I'd have an out.

And, since R3 can't "retreat" to second, he can't "retreat past third." So, he's not required to touch third again.
I see what you're getting at, but when the runner goes home, he physically steps over 3rd base (or slightly around it). When he goes to 2nd, if you draw his path on paper, he's making a "wide turn" if you look at it. I wouldn't have an out in your scenario.

UmpJM Fri Feb 12, 2010 11:14am
Quote:
Originally Posted by dash_riprock (Post 661162)
Unless he is attempting to confuse the defense or make a travesty of the game, his retreat to 2nd is legal.
dash,

I would disagree.

Once a runner legally attains a base, and the pitcher subsequently delivers a pitch (or even engages the rubber with possession of the ball in preparation to make a subsequent pitch), the runner may NOT retreat to a previous base for any reason. (7.01 Comment).

I agree with mbyron's assertion.

JM

bob jenkins Fri Feb 12, 2010 11:19am
Quote:
Originally Posted by dash_riprock (Post 661162)
Unless he is attempting to confuse the defense or make a travesty of the game, his retreat to 2nd is legal.
I don't have any of my baseball books here, but from OBR:

7.01 A runner acquires the right to an unoccupied base when he touches it before he is out. He is then entitled to it until he is put out, or forced to vacate it for another runner legally entitled to that base. Rule 7.01 Comment: If a runner legally acquires title to a base, and the pitcher assumes his pitching position, the runner may not return to a previously occupied base.

GA Umpire Fri Feb 12, 2010 12:27pm
I agree with UmpJM and others. Since he is an R3, he cannot retreat back to 2B so he cannot be considered between 2B and 3B. Had he been an R2, then I would uphold the appeal.

Touching the bases in order does not include the one he started from. He has already touched that one in order.

I'm interested if NCAA has an official ruling on this. If not, would they be inclined to lean towards no appeal/appeal?

dash_riprock Fri Feb 12, 2010 05:14pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by UmpJM (nee CoachJM) (Post 661178)
dash,

I would disagree.

Once a runner legally attains a base, and the pitcher subsequently delivers a pitch (or even engages the rubber with possession of the ball in preparation to make a subsequent pitch), the runner may NOT retreat to a previous base for any reason. (7.01 Comment).

I agree with mbyron's assertion.

JM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins (Post 661181)
I don't have any of my baseball books here, but from OBR:

7.01 A runner acquires the right to an unoccupied base when he touches it before he is out. He is then entitled to it until he is put out, or forced to vacate it for another runner legally entitled to that base. Rule 7.01 Comment: If a runner legally acquires title to a base, and the pitcher assumes his pitching position, the runner may not return to a previously occupied base.
In the OP, the pitcher had not assumed his pitching position when the runner retreated.

Bob - if you quoted that rule without referring to your baseball books, I am truly impressed.

UmpJM Fri Feb 12, 2010 05:35pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by dash_riprock (Post 661309)
In the OP, the pitcher had not assumed his pitching position when the runner retreated.

....
Dash,

Huh?!?!!? WTF are you talking about?

In the OP, the R3 STARTS on 3B (hence, the appellation, "R3"). The pitcher then presumably pitches the ball because I don't understand how the batter could have...

Quote:
... hit(s) the ball out in front of the plate....
if the pitcher never pitched it.

JM

dash_riprock Fri Feb 12, 2010 08:09pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by UmpJM (nee CoachJM) (Post 661323)

In the OP, the R3 STARTS on 3B
Oops. You're right. Thanks for not being snotty about it.

jicecone Fri Feb 12, 2010 08:54pm
Ok, for the record then. In Fed the runner is out on appeal because of Situation #9 ONLY. A runner is either advancing and shall touch the bases in order or returning, and shall retouch the bases in reverse order. Black and white no exceptions during live action.

In OBR there is no Situation #9 so we abide by the real rules that read quite similar to Fed, except for Situation #9.

In Fed you uphold appeal, in OBR you deny.

SAump Fri Feb 12, 2010 11:42pm
no must touch, no must retouch
 
B/R may run directly to 2B after running up the line past 1B.

Retouching a base is only required when runner must retreat.

Neither condition is satisfied in the OP, thus OBR is correct.

The runner advancing home and returning to 3B is not required to retouch 3B in either direction.

FED Situation 9 now requires a runner to retouch a previously occupied base before advancing to the next base. Reminds me of the FED foul ball ruling that was recently rescinded.

SAump Sat Feb 13, 2010 12:12am
Bring on the lawsuits
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by lawump (Post 661013)
Bunch of umpire guys kick off the season each year by have a big dinner together at a local restaurant after our FED test. Last night was that night. During the evening one umpire shared a play he had last year, and asked if he "got it right."

The play resulted in a spirited debate. I am going to post the play, and NOT tell you my opinion. I am interested in your opinions.

FED RULES: R3. Batter hits the ball out in front of the plate. R3 comes far down the line. F2 fields the ball, and sees he has a play on R3. R3 sprints back toward third base. R3 goes back into third base standing up. He actually is going back so quickly, that he cannot stop at the bag, but rather steps on third base and continues several steps past the bag, and is standing on the outfield side of the bag. R3 is clearly going to be out, except F2 throws the ball all the way to the left field corner. R3 turns around and sprints for home (remember, he is standing two good steps on the outfield side of third base). He runs completely in foul territory and never touches third base on his way home. Defense appeals that the runner missed third base.

Do you uphold or deny the appeal? FED? OBR?
It wouldn't be any different if he skirts fair territory just inside the 3rd baseline.

Appeal denied, R3 is standing on 3B at TOP. How can he miss the base?

johnnyg08 Sat Feb 13, 2010 09:13am
Great thread...so what do we tell the def-coach in our OBR games when he wants the appeal? Please offer an explanation...I've read all of the posts at least twice...I'm just wondering on what grounds we can deny the appeal in OBR...the coach will want an explanation and "I saw it on officiating.com" is probably not the best one I could give him. Thank you.

dash_riprock Sat Feb 13, 2010 09:27am
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnnyg08 (Post 661412)
Great thread...so what do we tell the def-coach in our OBR games when he wants the appeal? Please offer an explanation...I've read all of the posts at least twice...I'm just wondering on what grounds we can deny the appeal in OBR...the coach will want an explanation and "I saw it on officiating.com" is probably not the best one I could give him. Thank you.
Tell him there is no "missed base" because the runner could not legally retreat past 3rd. He was not obligated to touch 3rd again.

jicecone Sat Feb 13, 2010 10:54am
Once a runner aquires the right to a base, he has fulfilled his obligation for touching the base whether advancing or returning and therefore can not miss thed base he already touched.

In Fed? "Please read Situation #9 coach and direct all questions to NFHS, maybe they can explain it better."

The way I am understaning this now, (and I may be wrong), in the OP had the returning runner missed 3b when returning and then again when heading for home, you would still deny the appeal. If this is different please supply a reference.

mbyron Sat Feb 13, 2010 11:43am
Quote:
Originally Posted by jicecone (Post 661418)
The way I am understanding this now, (and I may be wrong), in the OP had the returning runner missed 3b when returning and then again when heading for home, you would still deny the appeal. If this is different please supply a reference.
For FED, R1 (on third) is out on appeal. The reference is Situation 9: "Ruling: R1 is out on the valid defensive appeal."

For all other codes: deny the appeal.

lawump Sat Feb 13, 2010 01:01pm
For what it is worth, the runner was called out. As was pointed out above, the runner was called out at the end of the play (and not on appeal) because we have no appeal plays in SC.

Also, for what it is worth, I have read through this thread several times and I now have doubts...but prior to this thread I definitely would have called R3 out on appeal had this occurred in a game when I was in MiLB.

Thanks for everyone's thoughts.


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