I'm curious as to others opinions on this. In a couple of threads I have seen references to the umpires' performance in the LLWS, but I have not yet seen anyone talk about the latitude that the umpires are giving the players in terms of their conduct.

The LL rulebook gives umpires the explicit right to eject players for unsportsmanlike conduct. So far I have seen players do everything from victory dances to shot calling to outright taunting of opposing pitchers and as yet the unmpires have done nothing.

This baffles me. If the kids in our league behaved like that, I would toss them immediately and without discussion. They of course know this and therefore don't do it, but there does not seem to be any such constraints on the players in the series.

So several questions. Am I just an old fuddy duddy who is out of touch and overreacting? If not, then who should be held accountable for this? To me this is part of the umpires' area to police to maintain game control, but these umpires don't seem to feel so.

David:

No, you're not an old fuddy duddy, but you are part of a vanishing breed. Every year there are fewer folks who respect the game for what it's been, (real baseball), and more who expect it to be entertainment.

I'm sure the tournament directors will brief the teams on expected behavior next year. The question of why it wasn't done this year may lead to some interesting discussions.

I hate to see "hot-dogging" as much as the next guy, but in our current society it takes a strong message in advance to keep the game on the line of a normal athletic contest. The kids see all the poor examples on TV, movies, at school, etc., and develop an attitude that believes it's normal to be an eccentric, rather than a serious, dedicated player.

Yes, the Harlem coach could have done a much better job of controlling behavior, but maybe he wasn't expecting the various exhibitions of showmanship, either.

senior

<i> Originally posted by brandda </i>

<b> I'm curious as to others opinions on this. In a couple of threads I have seen references to the umpires' performance in the LLWS, but I have not yet seen anyone talk about the latitude that the umpires are giving the players in terms of their conduct.

The LL rulebook gives umpires the explicit right to eject players for unsportsmanlike conduct. So far I have seen players do everything from victory dances to shot calling to outright taunting of opposing pitchers and as yet the unmpires have done nothing.

This baffles me. If the kids in our league behaved like that, I would toss them immediately and without discussion. They of course know this and therefore don't do it, but there does not seem to be any such constraints on the players in the series.

So several questions. Am I just an old fuddy duddy who is out of touch and overreacting? If not, then who should be held accountable for this? To me this is part of the umpires' area to police to maintain game control, but these umpires don't seem to feel so. </b>

IMO, the LLWS is being treated no differently than the World Series, NBA Finals, Stanly Cup Finals or the Super Bowl. Officials give more leeway to players during these times.

Also, IMO the main problem is that TODAY the game <b> doesn't take care of itself </b> like when we played.

Let's take this "hot dog" issue for a minute. In our day, this would be a non issue because the next time this player came up to bat guess where the pitch would be. Today if you do this holy h**l would break loose and that IMO is the BIG difference bewteen Yesterday and Today.

Baseball unlike the "other" major sports has become <i> to proper </i> which is why these type tactics make headlines.

The other thing that I don't know for certain is that it seems <b> on the surface </b> anyway that the LLWS umpires don't have much authority which could be a major problem.

The World Series Director or whatever you want to call this person has NO business being on the field telling the Harlem Manager that this type of behavior is unacceptable. IMO that's Blues job.

As soon as we enter the confines of the field is when our jurisdiction begins and no-one should tell us or instruct us how to conduct a game. That part is called Umpire evaluation or rating. If someone thinks I can't control a game then so be it - Tell me <b> UP FRONT </b> but if I earned the right to be there then allow me and my other umpires to <b> Run the Game </b>

To sum up, I think in all BIG Type games officials give some leeway, however, I agree the Umpires on the field should take more control of the situation because if some of these type antics were done in the regular season, bedlam might have arsien.

Pete Booth

I disagree with you, Pete.
When teams "send messages" to such hot dogs they can't do so in situations where the ultimate message sent may hurt themselves moreso than their opponents. That is, you can't always send that message in close, big games. These teams have worked hard to get where they are, and the game is more important than retaliation for some nimrod act an opponent displays. I don't know if there have been situations where messages could have been sent without doing more damage to yourself. Additionally, I don't know if it was done "in our day" at this age level. I think the entire concept is one picked up at a later age.

While the issues that have occurred at the LLWS do not represent good sportsmanship, I've seen nothing that I would have ejected anyone for <u>without warning</u> as a result of the action. Several incidents certainly would have drawn warnings from me if I was umpiring. The incidents I saw were in separate games, likely with different crews. Without a league directive to the contrary, crews shouldn't go onto the field with a chip on their shoulder to eject without warning because an incident occurred in a previous game.

It's a shame, however, that an administrator has to address the issue rather than the games umpires.
I doubt if any responsible adult condones that type of sportsmanship.


Just my opinion,

Freix

Freix - You make a good point and maybe you give the extra leash here because it is the series and issue the warning, but I have not seen them even doing that. I guess our league is different, but we don't need the warning because it is understood by all that that kind of behavior will not be tolerated.

As much as I enjoy watching those games, I am beginning to believe that they should not be televised. You have to wonder how much of this would be going on without the TV being on them.

FYI... The coach for the Harlem team berated his players immediately after they entered the dugout. You could hear him tell them that the umpire told him there would be ejections if the scene was repeated. If you noticed a few minutes later another Harlem player homered and the players conducted themselves considerably more sportsmanlike.
And now you know the rest of the story. Porch Dog

Too Much TV
 

The mere fact that we are able to watch all (well more than 50% of the qualifying games) leading up to LLWS Championship game speaks volume on things have changed. Unfortunately, the amount of sports coverage has saturated the airwaves and today's youth gets to watch displays of over the top celebrations in baseball, basketball and football.

Once the toothpaste is out of the tube you can not put it back.

Do I remember correctly that in at least one of those LL games, an umpire was doing some kind of dance with two other people between innings? That guy is supposed to warn the participants about proper behavior?

I saw that too. He embarrassed the whole profession.

I guess you've missed the umpires doing YMCA at the regionals and the LLWS too.

What's the big deal??

I can't speak specifically for LL or the LLWS, but often the umpire is *asked* to participate in some of those events by the powers-that-be. You'll note that players participated in some of those songs / dances as well.

You'll see this at the pro minor-league level as well -- the umpire dances, the mascot "steals" an opposing player's glove, etc.

Surely you can tell the difference between someone participating in a event that's supposed to be fun and crowd-pleasing and an individual trying to show up the other team (or another participant).

Regarding the actions of the Harlem player and his disgraceful homerun trot. The Harlem coach had no choice but to chew his player's tuckus because the reaming he got on ESPN's Between the Lines this past Sunday morning. The simple fact is the player should have been tossed no what level of amateur competition. The Harlem player's homerun trot was disgraceful and the fact that it happened can mean only one thing: it was not the first time he had done it and it had been condoned by his coach and the player's parents.

As the father of two sons (ages: 9 and 12) who participate in basketball, baseball, and swimming, I can assure you that if one of my sons had pulled that stunt he would not have made it to the dugout after touching homeplate, because I would have been out of the stands dragging him behind the woodshed for a good you know what.

<i> Originally posted by brandda </i>

<b> I saw that too. He embarrassed the whole profession. </b>

David don't be embarrassed. The game is a show. I took my kids to see the Hudson Valley Renegades, who are an A affiliate of the Tampa Bay Devil Rays.

The PU not only danced, but did a hand stand and landed as a cheerleader does. You are seeing more and more of this. It's the show and umpires are encouraged to participate.

So IMO, the PU is not embarrassing himself, but merely being part of the show to draw the fans in. There were 3,000 in attendence - not bad for Class A ball.

Pete Booth

[Edited by PeteBooth on Aug 23rd, 2002 at 11:08 AM]

I'm afraid it <i>is</i> a "show" today. Too bad the game of baseball itself can't bring enough fans in.

Why not have nude bat girls and get another couple of thousand "fans" in the park? Having the police look the other way on pot smoking would undoubtedly boost attendance, too.

The Phillie Phanatic goes through an act where he tries to sneak up behind the umpire or make fun of him somehow, but the umpire inevitably notices the Phanatic and chases him away. At least the umpire is going through the act that he is in charge and won't tolerate silliness. That's different from putting on a hula hoop.

To me, the umpire is an official of the league. He's like a judge in a courtroom. He should not involve himself in silly antics. I believe that such behavior tears down the necessary "fence" between officials and players. It's a form of familiarity, and we know what that breeds.

He's not like a judge in the courtroom, or an officer of the league. He's an "employee" (or independent contractor). He's told what to do.

IF you have a problem with what the umpires are doing, you need to address your complaint to the league, not to the umpires.

<i> Originally posted by greymule </i>

<b> I'm afraid it <i>is</i> a "show" today. Too bad the game of baseball itself can't bring enough fans in.


To me, the umpire is an official of the league. He's like a judge in a courtroom. He should not involve himself in silly antics. I believe that such behavior tears down the necessary "fence" between officials and players. It's a form of familiarity, and we know what that breeds. </b>

I agree with Bob we are not officers of a league unless you are involved in LL and as an umpire you could be on the BOD.

General Comment:

It sounds from your post(s) that you think umpires should be this Stoic (Robotic) individual void from feeling or emotion. Umpiring should be fun. I am a talker and from other threads some umpires feel we shouldn't talk to players coaches etc. however that's my personality. I know I have a job to do and so do the players / coaches

I talked to players when I played the game and I continue to do so. Also, IMO you need to differentiate our job when the game is on meaning it's time for business vs. in between innings or before the game. Now don't get me wrong after the game is over I don't hang around etc. I simply greet my partner and leave.

Also, I don't look at things as "Us against them" althought sometimes it appears that way. As stated this dancing "other" antics are discussed with the individual up front and is part of the show.

I don't look at the "antics" when evaluating an umpires performance. It's what goes on in bewteen the white lines. You can dance etc. and still control a game. Unsportsmanlike behavior is vastly different than simply being part of an overall show.

BTW I think it's a good thing that people see we are HUMAN too and can enjoy the game as do players , coaches and Fans.

When umpiring stops becoming Fun is the day it's time for something new.

Pete Booth

I am new to these boards but have been umpiring for the past 10 years. Maybe my opinion doesn't mean much, but why not share it.

I am going to have to agree with Pete on this one. Why should we not break down the barriers that make us appear to be inhuman?? What is wrong with being seen as a normal hman being doing their job??

I konw for police officers it is the same case, if you dealt with an officer as a normal person who is doing their job then they dont come as standoffish 99% of the time. I find it the same way with umpiring. Not to mention when I have been able to talk to coaches or players before games, in between innings or what not that when osmething does come up of controversy that they will treat me as a human rather than some robot that thinks they are always right (granted as umpires we generally are ;) ). Yes, there is a level as an umpire we need to carry ourselves at. But we are in the game and officiating it for what I hope is the same basic reasons....we enjoy the game and find it fun.

That said and done, I think I will go back to lurking for a while. :)

Jake "the Flake"

Pete - I respect your opinion, but in this case I have to disagree with you. Umpires sit in a position of authority and along with that authority comes the responsibility to set a good example. If you don't, such as the entertainment antics, then why should anyone listen to you?

I don't have a problem with chatting with players and coaches so long as doing so does not in any way jeapordize the perception of impartiality and absolute authority which is necessary for an umpire to maintain control of the game. I personally chat with coaches before the game if I know both of them, but I am very cognizant of spending the same amount of time with each. Once the game starts, unless there is a ruling discussion, we each take care of our own jobs. The only time I talk to the kids is at the very young levels (up to say age 10) and/or in instructional leagues when I can do a little teaching along with calling the game. Otherwise I just call the game and keep my mouth shut.

Personally, if my kid is playing or I am coaching, I want the umpire thinking about the game, not about the song and dance routine that he is going to do in the third inning to entertain the fans. We are not commentators or entertainers. We are the voice of authority on the field. I believe that we need to act like it. Umpires who don't just make it harder for the rest of us.

<i> Originally posted by brandda </i>

[B]Pete - I respect your opinion, but in this case I have to disagree with you. Umpires sit in a position of authority and along with that authority comes the responsibility to set a good example. If you don't, such as the entertainment antics, then why should anyone listen to you? </b>

David we all have our opinions which after all makes the world go around. It all boils down to "style" and what makes the game fun for you.

Also, it depends upon where you are umpiring. As I said if an up and coming Minor League umpire can "dance" , I don't have a problem with it. As mentioned I don't think it takes away from one's ability to control the game.

There's the GAME and then there is the SHOW. 2 Separate and distinct activities. The players know when it's for show and when it's time for business.

You have to umpire a game the way you feel most comfortable, but I don;t think if other umpires do it differently doesn't necessarily mean they are ruin it for the rest of us.

One is rated on his /her performance on the Field.

Pete Booth

I guess the concern that I have here is that this is a dangerous precedent. The excuse that kids use for their bad behavior is that they see the professionals displaying poor sportsmanship so why shouldn't they?

My personal beief is that I really don't care what umpires do in the show. I wish they did not act like idiots and cavort about the field because that sets a bad example for umpires at all other levels. The only way I can combat that then is to set a good example for the kids that I am around.

I have heard all of the arguments about our WWF driven culture which is why I started this thread by saying that maybe I am just old and out of touch. Bottom line, I don't want to do anything that sets a poor example for my kids or embarrasses my family and I think that's what those umps who "put on a show" are doing.

Gentlemen

What we are dealing with here, is called PERCEPTION.

In officiating any sport, there are those that believe that the stern, almost statue-like performance is the mark of a excellence in a great official. Then there are those that understand that we are all human beings before and after we put our uniforms on to officiate. But this is no different than our everyday life.

I work in the Engineering Profession and believe me, there is nothing more disturbing than those people that call theirself a professional, and at a drop of bucket sell their integrity for the sake of a dollar.

I also officiate Baseball and Ice Hockey and when the day comes that I can't enjoy what I'm doing, then its time to give it up. I have had evaulators state to me,that it sometimes looks that I am not serious about what I'm doing, because I look like I'm having a good time. PERCEPTION

By the same token I have been chastised by those that believe you should never crack a joke in a serious business meeting. PERCEPTION

To them I say "WAKE UP AND SMELL THE COFFEE"

20 & 30 years ago this was the accepted norm. But in today's world we need more officials that show their human side and can still go out there and gain their respect by the job they perform and not how someone has perceived them.
Yes, looking the part is important and there has to be boundries that we never cross but, IMO that what I call, the military approach to life is NOT the way to go.

Don't get me wrong, I can't picture the bottom of the ninth of the World Series, tie score, 2 outs, bases loaded and (one of my favorites),Mickey Mantle stepping up to the plate. The PU looks at MM and says "So hows the wife and kids, Mick. Hey I heard a great joke last night". That PU knows what being a Professional Official truly means and repects the players as he has gained the players respect.

But, I would not see anything wrong whatsoever if after MM hit a towering 420ft Grand Slam, the official said to him, "Great Hit Mick".

Working hard to get the calls right, being respectful, listening and being courtious to the players no matter what age, and being fair has worked for me. Showing that I care and understand, yet being able to to be firm and take control along with the above, has earned me respect.

The rest of the garbage, PERCEPTION!!!!!!!!!!!!!Based upon opinions. And we know everyone has one.

JUST MY TWO PENNIES.

Every single umpire who works the LLWS, and at least the Eastern Region that I know of, at some point have a dance with Dugout. Whether it be the song and dance that you saw, or doing the YMCA as a crew in center, they will all eventually dance. They will be solicited by Dugout in front of the whole crowd, and the pressure to participate is great.

The reason it is done? To deflate the tension that builds at one of these contests. It is for the kids, to make them more relaxed, and so they learn that it's okay to have fun. They see the adults, the umpires, out on that field, cutting loose, and having a good time, and that does wonders for relaxing the kids and making them more loose. Otherwise, the tension would overwhelm them, they wouldn't have much fun, and we'd see far many more crying kids than we do.

I support LL's effort to decrease the tensions of those kids, and I support any umpire who has the cajones to dance a jig with a giant rodent in front of 37,000 people.

It's a good thing. Don't knock it.

Well, based on the feedback I am getting from my respected peer group here, it is apparent that my initial suspicion was correct. It turns out that I am an old fuddy duddy and am apparently out of touch with the direction that the game is going. So, while I doubt that I will ever want to participate in these kinds of displays, I guess I will have to get comfortable with them.

Thanks for the feedback everyone.

Personally, I want to learn to "Moon Walk". Then when a manager goes to the mound and stays to long, I can go out and break up their meeting and have them move the game along; then, do my little Moon Walk back to the plate - - - maybe even do it along the base paths after fixing a base!!!

Rog,
Well, ... make sure you are not wearing your cleated plate shoes, or you will be the show. ;)
mick

Good point! So, right after I pick myself up off the ground, I'll dust myself off; and, announce that I learned this new move from the Garth Fagen Dance Company which is called: "another one bites the dust".....

Yes, I can moonwalk
 

I didn't like the Harlem team's "gamesmanship," but I'm not tossing anybody out for it. I agree with Freix.

What frosts my spheroids is that the Harlem coach laid the responsibility for discipline on the umpires. He said, did he not, (in effect): "If you do that again, the umpires will eject you." Not: "I'll yank your butt out of the game."

I'm not sure about the ump dancing. I guess if I can turn around and resume my usually nasty demeanor after sashaying with a stuffed mascot, it would be fine.

The worst part is the sloppy mechanics and "amateur" skills of most of these umpires. This is where I get irked. If I see/hear one more LLWS ump bellow "STEERIKE THREE" on a swinging third, I'm gonna hurl.

Ace in CT

Amateurishness.
 

Ace,
Because you are a consultant for Little League Umpires, I am surprised by your public admonishment of those LLWS umpires.
I would think you would take the role more of a protagonist than antagonist, toward your ilk.
mick

Re: Yes, I can moonwalk
 

<i> Originally posted by aceholleran </i>

<b> The worst part is the sloppy mechanics and "amateur" skills of most of these umpires. This is where I get irked. If I see/hear one more LLWS ump bellow "STEERIKE THREE" on a swinging third, I'm gonna hurl. </b>

Ace, being involved in LL I'm surprised at your response. IMO you are missing the point. It's the selection process that needs re-vamping.

If you watched any of the Regionals both in Baseball and Softball and ultimately the LLWS, there were some really good umpires out there who demonstrated the proper mechanics, Plate work etc., however, for some strange reason they were left out of the Championship Series or game.

The problem IMO, is not LL Umpires, but the selection or Rating procedures. I don't like to comment on things without knowing for certain how something works, but from strictly wacthing the games and attending IN PERSON one of them, it appears on the surface anyway, that LL could use a RE-VAMPING of the selection process.

From your comment above, perhaps you felt you should have been selected which is the reason for your NEGATIVE reaction.

Pete Booth

Someone, somewhere in this thread, mentioned Single A Minor League umpires were seen frolicking in a manner similar to the volunteers at the LLWS.

I would question that.

I went to a Spokane Indians game last year when the featured promotional act was Myron Noodleman, a Jerry Lewis wannabe who entertained between innings. To my amazement, I "saw" him walk up to the PU who was standing on the third base line between halves of an inning and coax him into doing the "chicken dance". The "ump" was pretty damn good, too.

After the game, I hung out to talk with the umpires. I mentioned to the PU that he did a hell of a chicken dance. "No way," he protested, "No F@#$!^& way."

I stared at him for a second and he continued. "That was his stooge. He has a partner that provides his props and plays his music for most of the game, and then dresses like an ump and takes the third base line for that bit. I was in the walkway to the locker room."

The other ump added: "Our supervisor has told us to NEVER get into the act with a promtional character or even the mascot. Sometimes they try really hard, but I would never let the players see someone make an *** of me on the field. I'd never live it down and I'd never move up."

Later, as we were leaving, I saw Noodleman load up his car and there was his assistant, still wearing his ump hat. I approached him and asked if he ever got real umpires into his act. He said that he used to get one or two a year to go along, but gave up trying "years ago." "For one, they are all afraid to look silly," he said, "and two, they suck at it."

That would be my response if asked. I would prefer to maintain some dignity on the playing field and not look silly (anymore than usual); and, no doubt, I would suck at it.

Right on, GarthB. I would be lousy at it, too, because I HATE to dance. (That's why I married a ballet dancer.)

huh ?

The PBUC manual covers this issue and does NOT say to not participate only that prior approval is required.

People tell guy to tone down the strike three mechanic because it's kids. Then they turn around and say, don't dance. Well, the kids like the big strike three mechanic. They also enjoy seeing the humanization of the umpire. The LL umpire is one of the ONLY adults on the field and sometimes kids are intimidated by him. Sometimes the kids get a big kick out of seeing that too.

Bob

[Edited by blarson on Aug 27th, 2002 at 11:37 PM]