Two schools of thought for the following question. I'd like to get some other opinions.

As an umpire, should you have a copy of the rule book with your at the diamond? I have heard reasons for both having one and consciously not bringing one to the diamond.

I subscribe to the theory that it is better to stop a game for 10 minutes, consult the book and make sure of a call on the field, than it is to not have the credibility of the umpire undermined at the time and have the game protested on the basi of a bad call.

Thoughts?

Well OBR 9 GENERAL INSTRUCIONS TO UMPIRES states "cary your rule book" so i carry it.

Hehehe
 

Only untrained umpires would ever think of actually carrying their rule book to the field.

ALWAYS have a rule book available. I keep mine in the car along with other reference material so that if the worst happened I could stop the game, go to the car and read.

I have never seen an umpire do this (go to read the book during a game) but I ONLY work games where the players are of shaving age.

robert has made yet another astonishing post.

You have to show enough reassurance and proficiency that you don't carry a rule book.

Just think of what runs through your mind when you see a coach scrambling for his rule book in a dug-out after a very rare call. You chuckle, right? You think, what is is real job, right?

Don't put the impression on the people that you need a rule book next to your brush. Walk Large...and In-Charge!!!

I would bet if you were to poll the majority of those two schools of thought, (and make the poll only of officials), there would overwhelming support for leaving that book off the field.

Yes, as already reported, OBR recommends they be on the field. Well when I start officiating MLB ball (In my next life time), then I will take their advise on everthing.

Now this poll can serve two purposes:

1. Answer your question.
2. Generate enough responses to sset the world record for most post on the forum.

Either way, think of the honor will have acheived.??????

I dont actually cary it on the field with me, and I have never had to use it. I set it outside the fence inside my bag. I think keepin it in the car is a little too far away in my park. Also its not like on every play I look in the book. The main reason I have it is for an argument settler.

I don't carry one on the field, although I've always got one in my vehicle. I'm not afraid of someone else having one on the field, but if they pull it out, they better have it opened to the area they want to discuss. I'll not delay a game for them to find what they're looking for---they better know it and be there if they plan on using that book.

I feel it is arrogant for an umpire not to allow a book on the field (as many umpires may not allow).
These are the rules that govern this game. IMO, the coach has the right to question and point out that which he feels is improper. Still, I'll not let him turn the game into a fiasco in doing so. His having the book does not mean that I'm going to stand there and read it with him or to him.

The final decision, book or not, will be that of the umpires. If the coach doesn't like it, he can look in the book to read the rule regarding protest.


Just my opinion,

Freix

Hehehehe
 

Steve:

I think it is quite funny that you, of all people, talk about what makes an umpire arrogant.

But let's place that aside for a moment while we review the process of knowing rules:

If you are a "trained" umpire (and I call no difference to a volunteer or a paid umpire) you have a working knowledge of the Nine Rules under which the game is played.

What chance do you think there would be that a coach could possibly come out to discuss and request a reading of any of those nine rules and the two of you actually come to an answer by reading the simple words in the book?

We have been hashing the same plays around the internet for four years with sitations from JEA, J/R, BRD, "Knotty Problems", the NAPBL Manual and still have serious questions about rules that appear simple to some.

If a coach came out to argue that "the hands ARE part of the bat" and told you to get out the rule book and SHOW HIM that he is wrong, could it be done? Nope.

Even if you require a coach to "find" whatever information in the book that backs his position THEN come out to discuss it that doesn't work either.

Why?

No coach (manager or even administrator) has even a flake of knowledge of the book that a "trained" umpire has . . . I would be willing to bet that not even a trained umpired that is coaching could find the reference soon enough as not to delay the game.

Steve, there are certain things in the world that can have research done and prove a point. Baseball rulings, DURING THE GAME, are made by the most qualified person, Mr. Umpire!

It is NOT an ego issue to NOT carry a rule book on to the field of battle. It is just good common sense.

We are not talking about life and death Steve -- we are talking about a game between the local A & P and Bob's Speed Shop.

Again:

I have never seen an umpire carry a rule book on to the field of play during over three decades of working games where players are of shaving age.

It is poor advice to suggest that a "trained" umpire carry the rule book on to the field.

[Edited by Tim C on Aug 10th, 2002 at 12:34 PM]

Just out of curiosity, can someone tell me how, and why, my reply was deleted? This is not the first time.

Bob

Re: Hehehehe
 

and I don't think I advocated that, Tee.
I think your statement implies that I did.

What I do say, is don't have an erection or an ejection merely because a coach brings a rule book onto the field. The rules are what you are playing by. There's no reason they should be banned from the site.

Make your ruling as you see fit. If you need that book and want to use, then use it. If you don't, then don't.


Just my opinion,

Freix

Me too!
 

Bob:

I also had a post deleted AND when I tried to log in it would not accept my time honored password.

Things settled down just a little bit ago.

Try again.

I think it's been said, but take it to the field, not on the field. I like to have it in my bag so that between games I can check on something that came up. It does not do any good to have it on the field though because you are not going to stop the game while you look something up.

<i> Originally posted by Michael Hughes </i>

<b> Two schools of thought for the following question. I'd like to get some other opinions.

As an umpire, should you have a copy of the rule book with your at the diamond? I have heard reasons for both having one and consciously not bringing one to the diamond.

I subscribe to the theory that it is better to stop a game for 10 minutes, consult the book and make sure of a call on the field, than it is to not have the credibility of the umpire undermined at the time and have the game protested on the basi of a bad call. </b>

Michael, I agree with TEE and others Do not carry it, however, what I have found to be the best approach to not only your thread but on "other" threads where there are differencies of opinion is this:

Try things YOUR way first, then

Try something else

Compare the 2 and see what gives the most desired results. Umpiring is a craft mastered through game experience. Also, as TEE points out it does matter whether the kids shave or not. Once you get into "adult" type umpiring, things change and the way you learn is this:

Stay stubborn: Do it your way and get burned. All of a sudden you start getting less game assignments or because of the shortage you might be working everyday but guess where? places no one wants to go.

If things aren't working your way try something different.

Pete Booth

It's BAACK!!
 

One can measure the passing of time by the regular return of the SAME inquiries over the years. Like clockwork, and your weird uncle, he keeps coming back. This inquiry only lapped by the infamous and oft heard, "Base Umpire Clicker Quandry" Puleeeze...

No no no to the question, echoed by most others.

I remember back in the olden days, those "10 minute delays" while a rule book was consulted...... ugh. Makes me shiver.
I can't think of anything that would look for amaturish and bush than that.

I'm ready for the next thread, "The Rulebook EJ?!"

Moose:

Shame on you. What kind of talk is that. Kids and some spouses visit this page you know. I mean what were you thinking????

Oops. Sorry...just noticed you said rulebook <u><b>E</b></u>J.

Never mind.

Stopped This Year
 

This is my fourth year umpiring. During the first three years of umpiring career, I carried the rule book in my back pocket. Why did I stop this year? A combination of reading discussions like this and acquired confidence and experience from reading hundreds of posts at sites like this.

Once you have mastered the fundamental rules, you can "discuss" any rules situation with a manager. The biggest challenge I have found is using the "right phases" to communicate with the manager so we can move with the game. Anytime you can insert "in my judgment" as part of the explanation that usually ends the discussion.

You'd be absolutely foolish not to have any access to a rulebook whatsoever. If something esoteric comes up for which you don't have the ruling on your finger tips - you are going to look pretty foolish when it is protested successfully when it could have been resolved promptly with a quick glance at a rulebook.

As one poster already mentioned. You <i>should</i> have your rulebook with you.

I don't think I'd have the rulebook with me in my back pocket. It makes you look kind of geeky and uncertain.

Neither, would I have my rulebook out in the parking lot, locked in the trunk of my car. Imagine how silly that would look if you actually had to reference it.

Don't most of you have an equipment bag that you place in some safe location near the field? That's where I keep my rulebook.

If I needed to reference it, I could have access to it in a matter of seconds.

Hehehehe
 

Equipment Bag? To the Field?

Hehehehe

Make sure you have your water bottle in your back pocket also.

Again, I have never known an umpire that has EVER carried a rule book to the field.

Of course I have only worked a few games in a limited number of areas.

Tee, I knew one...I think
 

It was 1972, no 71....no maybe it was 73....I'm not sure. I think it was in Gilroy, a first year Babe Ruth ump had a rule book in his back pocket. It disappeared after the plate conference. I'm not sure what happened to it. Oh yeah, I remember now, I took the damn thing away from him and threw it over the fence.

GB

As a veteran, David, you learn the little tricks........

Here's a tip:
<ul>If you put that rulebook inside your pocket protector, nobody notices the rulebook..............</ul>

go ahead and try it.............



Freix

Stee here's an HONEST question for you
 

Why don't MLB Umpires carry a Rule Book onto the field?

I don't think you can argue that "they know the rules better" than an umpire that works non-professional games. We see here on the internet that there are many umpires that know just about everything to do with the rules.

What reason would they have to not carry the book as suggest by somoe of the posts in this thread?

Re: Stee here's an HONEST question for you
 

Because the first time you check the book during a game, you're telling everyone you're not sure of the rule. And everytime you make a ruling, you're going to hear, "Hey blue, check the book". Let them protest, if they think you're wrong.

Bob

Good Call Bob!
 

What I have been trying to say (you said it MUCH better).

There is no reason on earth for an expereinced, trained umpire to carry a rule book onto the field of play.

My sincerest apologies to the lord, master and king.

I was unaware of the fact that I needed to be charting the posts and threads on this site like it was the stock market so as not to disjoint the noses of the senior members.

As one who is new to the site, I will scrutinize things more carefully before asking what I thought to be a valid question in the future.

Sorry to have offended you, master.

Michael
 

Get over it! Quit being a whiner, pull up your socks and kick our collective butts if you don't like it.

You asked a question and many of us answered.

If you "don't want" answers that disagree with you then don't ask.

<b>"Sorry to have offended you, master."</b>

Michael,

Forgive me for observing that you appear to be the one offended.

Tee isn't offended. Not by this this thread. I've "known" Tee for at least four years now and I know it takes a lot more than a disgareement expressed at this level to offend him.

And it should take more than this to offend you as well. You <b>are</b> an umpire. Right?

Tee makes a valid point, one my grandfather used to make. "If you don't want an answer, don't ask the question."

I also liked his "When in doubt, imitate a clam."

But I digress.

I apologize for not making the proper notation as to the straw the stirred my drink.
***

From BJ Moose

It's BAACK!!
One can measure the passing of time by the regular return of the SAME inquiries over the years. Like clockwork, and your weird uncle, he keeps coming back. This inquiry only lapped by the infamous and oft heard, "Base Umpire Clicker Quandry" Puleeeze...

No no no to the question, echoed by most others.

I remember back in the olden days, those "10 minute delays" while a rule book was consulted...... ugh. Makes me shiver.
I can't think of anything that would look for amaturish and bush than that.

***
The fact that anyone would think disagreement would provoke me to the childishness of whining is absurd.

Why would I open a thread if I didn't want some sort of legitimate feedback?

Have I nothing better to do with my time, or the time of others by posting rhetorical questions?

Who thinks we should abandon the wearing of facemasks?
Anyone? No?

Ok...I'll scratch that offmy list of topics to post out here.

Respectfully,

Michael Hughes

<b>"Who thinks we should abandon the wearing of facemasks?
Anyone?"</b>


Ooohhh, ooohhh, I do, I do.

I'm giving up my west vest face mask next season for the All Star hocky helemt/mask.


Now, how about cups?

GB

I would reccomend you look throgh your rule book and make your self a quick lest of important rules or frequesntly used. and Reivew them before every game. Eliminates a lot of them conversations.

Hey Garth,

I just got my all star mask the other day. It's great. Much lighter, much better vision and much better balanced than a typical mask.

Re: Hehehehe
 

You missed the whole point. A *coach* does not determine when the umpire references the rulebook. The *umpire* refers to it whenever he thinks it is appropriate. NOT when the coach thinks it's appropriate.

If I had the rulebook in my back pocket and a coach started complaining that the hands are part of the bat - I would *not* get out my rulebook to show him that he's wrong! That's not why I would have it available.

It is there from MY use ... not HIS. I have to admit, there are some esoteric rules in there that I may not be 100% sure about it some odd play should pop up.

If a fielder throws his glove at a thrown ball and hits it ... what is the base award? And how does this effect other runners? Does thed award start at the point where the runner was when the infraction occurred -or- is it at the time of the throw? Or is it at the time of the pitch? Is the ball dead when this happens?

I'm pretty confident I know all these answers. But, if coached challenged me, I'd probably take a peek just to make sure I'm getting it right. My confidence factor would not be 100%. If it was, I wouldn't bother. I'd just let him protest the game without any need to reference the rulebook.

Re: Re: Hehehehe
 

Actually, the point I was trying to get across doesn't deal with ME carrying a book on the field to refer to, but rather, the attitude some umpires have that they won't allow a book on the field.

I don't think it's appropriate to NOT allow a book on the field. Those are the rules the game is played by. IMO, the coach has a right to have a book and to refer to it if asking a question. Still, he better have that book open to exactly the point that he wants to question. I'm not going to page through the book with him to show him what he wants. He better <u>know</u> what he wants---and that is to disprove a call---otherwise he wouldn't be there. The book needs to be ready for him to use as a tool. If not, it serves no purpose other than for him to look up and verify the decision later.

He's welcome to state what basis he has for any protest, but he better be ready to protest. I won't make him reference a rule number for his protest---just a concept. The book will serve little purpose to him unless he's got it open specifically to what he wants.

I had a Fed game this year where a coach listed his pitcher as a P/DH so that if he pulled his pitcher he could remain as a DH. It wasn't going to happen in Fed, and he was told so at the pregame. He told me to show him in the book that he couldn't have a P/DH. I told him how it was going to be, advised him I'd get my book between innings <u>as a courtesy to him</u>, but we were ready to start the game without his P/DH. He grudgingly accepted that fact, and I provided him the courtesy between innnings by getting the book and showing it to him. If he wanted to continue to argue, it may have resulted in putting him on the bench and getting another coach out for the pregame. Showing him the rule was something I didn't have to do, but chose to do. Yet, I wasn't going to delay the game because of his lack of rules knowledge.


Just my opinion,

Freix

Somewhere along here I believe I saw someone say they were not afraid of a manager pulling out a rulebook during the game. I agree only because if a coach does that on my field (happened 3 times in 10 years) they are QUICKLY ejected from the game. Mind you I dont have a quick thumb and will even tolerate a bit of barking on balls and strikes. I have 9 ejections in 10 years and two of those were for bat throwing. In any case if I am not mistaking, there is a rule somewhere in there about the book not being brought onto the field by a manager.

Reference, please. ;)

I am out of town and dont have the book handy. I believe it is in the NF rules and not OBR but I could be wrong. In any case, someone bringing a book out on my diamond is a blatant case of showing me up. It hasnt happened in a few years. Hopefully someone with a book can find it.

In my opinion, that would be a ridiculous ejection that is not only overly officious, it makes the umpire look defensive and afraid of the rulebook.

Don't eject the coach simply because he has a rulebook on the field. Eject the coach because he won't leave the field when instructed. The reason you might be instructing him to leave the field may be because you have no desire nor need to read the rulebook regarding your ruling. If the coach persists in being on the field after being told to leave - you eject him - whether he has a rulebook in his possession or not.

Umpires who eject simply because a coach approaches him with rulebook in hand look heavy-handed and defensive.

I totaly disagree with you but you are entitled to your opinion. If I want to pull the rulebook out on the field that is up to me as the umpire. I have had coaches ask me to check a rule and I have. For high school I keep the thing in my ball bag and for college it is in my field bag. I will not tolerate a coach running onto the field waving a book in front of the crowd.

If a coach runs toward you in a threatening manner, I could understand ejecting him for <i>that</i> reason.

If a coach screams at you, I could understand ejecting him for <i>that</i> reason.

But just because he has a rulebook in his hand? Give me a break!

What if the coach has a rulebook in his hand and he calmly approaches you without "waving" it and without screaming? Are you going to eject im soley on the basis that there is a rulebook in his hand as he entered the field? Is that what your ejection report is going to say?

You need to eject people for STANDARD reasons ... not PERSONAL pet peeves.

If you don't like rulebooks on the field then you should tell the coach to take it away. If he refuses, then eject him just as you would eject any coach for failing to comply with an instruction from an umpire. And the ejection report wouldn't read, "I ejected him because he had a rulebook on the field," it would say, "I ejected him because he failed to exit the field when instructed."

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

OK,
 

David:

I'll continue:

I have never seen a basketball ref carry a rule book on to the court. At any level.

I have never seen a football official carry a rule rook onto the field. At any level.

I have never seen a wrestling official carry a rule book to the mats. At any level.

And it goes on and on . . .

You BETTER know the rules well enough before you walk onto the field.

David, just WHAT would you look up in the rulke book anyway?

We have learned on this (and other boards) that the rules that are discussed are usually rulings based in a great amount of research and tradition.

So as I leave this thread I just offer the following advice to all of you:

"Leave the rule book in your car!

"Know it, and live it . . . but most of all, Leave It!"

Re: OK,
 

I have to agree with Tim. Since most of the leagues around here don't have protests anyway it even makes it more of a reason to leave it in the bag.

Thanks
David

Re: OK,
 

Actually we have two different topics going on within this thread:

<FONT COLOR=BLUE>1. Should umpires have their rulebook with them when calling a game?</FONT>

MY OPINION: Not <i>physically</i> on them, like in their back pocket, but it should be readily available. "Readily available" does not mean in the parking lot, in the trunk of your car.

<FONT COLOR=BLUE>2. Should an umpire eject a coach for bringing a rulebook on the field?</FONT>

MY OPINION: The simple act of bringing a rulebook onto the field is not something that warrants an ejection. It would only deserve an ejection if the umpire told the coach that he (the umpire) had no need nor desire to reference the rulebook, yet the coach persisted.

Well, FED 3-3-1h says "have any object in his posession in the coach's boxother than a rule book ..."

So, apparently in FED, it's okay for the coach, in some instances, to have the rule book on the field.

IT's how he uses it that might get him in trouble. ;)

David, David, David
 

1) If I am UIC "you" are not going to carry an equipment bag ("Ditty Bag" best description ever - Vince Lombardi) to the field. Since that is the case you would either do what I say ("Leave that sucker in the car") or try to sneek it on to the field (which is fine - if you open it you'll be working FROM the car).

2) You have failed to even try to answer "what" you'd be lookin' up in the book anyway.

Your advice is fine . . . NEVER take the rule book to the field.

Your answer is just an attempt to cover that you have said, repeatedly, the book should be on the field.

A2D from here forth.

Tim, Tim, Tim, Tim, Timmyyyyyyyyyy

Need any aspirin yet?

Alright.....
 

Too much American Idol for you guys....

Garth,
 

A great person once said, "you can lead a horse to water . . . " I KNOW you know the rest.

Good to see ya dropping in.

Re: Garth,
 

<i> Originally posted by Tim C </i>

<b> A great person once said, "you can lead a horse to water . . . " I KNOW you know the rest.

Good to see ya dropping in. </b>

TEE, this thread is already 4 pages long. Peter's thread on calling a Balk during a dead ball situation was 5 pages long, plus his thread was posted on another Board where it received even more play.

As Carl says Simply Amazing.

I don't know of any association that promotes their umpires carrying rule-books on the field of play unless you are single and want to use it to write down some phone numbers of prospective dates.


Pete Booth

Tim:

Just got back this afternoon from your neck of the Pacific Northwest woods. Took my son Matthew on a college visitation tour of University of Puget Sound, Seattle University, Pacific University, Portland State and University of Oregon. I think Univerity of Puget Sound will win out. They've offered a good scholarship and he really likes the facilities and the commmunications professor he met. I like everything about it except its initials: UPS. Hopefully, when it comes to a good education, they'll deliver.

Now to get on topic. To paraphrase the NRA: I'll carry my rule book on the field when they can pry it INTO my cold dead hand. Otherwise, it stays in the car next to the PBUC, BRD, J/R and the Kinnamon "Bible". (The JEA is too damn heavy.)