With R3, the pitcher is on the pitcher's rubber getting his sign when the runner takes off for home. The pitcher simply throws the ball to the catcher and dispenses with his usual windup. Is this a balk? Is this a pitch?

Again, R3 steals home. But *this* time the pitcher has just begun his windup. Seeing the runner stealing, the pitcher noticeably hastens his windup and delivers the ball. Is this a balk?

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

BALK, and.......BALK

Balk
 

Situation 1: Obvious Balk.
Situation 2: Depends, is pitcher winding or stretching?
If he is winding, He is continuing his pitch. If he proceeds with pitch properly but just speeds up the mechanics, how can this be a balk?

Just curious but here's what the rules say

<b>8.01(a)</b> Windup

From this position he may:

(1) deliver the ball to the batter, or
(2) step and throw to a base in an attempt to pick off a runner, or
(3) disengage the rubber (if he does he must drop his hand to his sides).

<b>8.01(b)</b> Set

From such Set Position he may deliver the ball to the batter, throw to a base or step backward off the pitcher's plate with his pivot foot.

AND

At any time during the pitcher's preliminary movements and until his natural pitching motion commits him to the pitch, he may throw to any base provided he steps directly toward such base before making the throw.

<b>8.05</b> If there is a runner, or runners, it is a balk when_

a) The pitcher, while touching his plate, makes any motion naturally associated with his pitch and fails to make such delivery;


= = = =

Sit 1:

What has he violated if he is in the "pre-set" position? As he hasn't come set, he hasn't started the pitch thus doesn't the "at any time during the preliminanry . . " part apply?

Balk if in windup I think tough.


Sit 2:

So he speeded his delivery - so what? Play on.

As posted , the pitcher was in the windup position for both situations, therefore:

Situation 1.

Balk

Situation 2.

Once the pitcher has begun his windup, there is no rule that states the speed at which the pitcher shall execute his delivery of the pitch to the plate.

NO Balk

8.01(a2)
 

I have yet to figure out how a pitcher in a wind-up can step towards a base and not initiate the pitch!!! 8.05(a) will always preclude this situation????

Sit 1: If taking signs he has both feet on rubber. 8.05(a) applies.

Why?

I agree that the pitcher *could* have done something that was a balk, but I don't read in the post that he *did* any of those things.

As described, I think both plays are legal.

How about that which was stated,

"The pitcher simply throws the ball to the catcher and dispenses with his usual windup."

So in other words the pitcher does not have to windup? He can just rear back and throw the ball to the catcher without disingageing the plate. Mabey Im missing something here, but Im commenting upon only what was written.

Please explain?

OBRvs FED
 

Fed: rules restrict the pitcher to pitch or step off(6.1.2)
Obr:8.05a, While taking signs from the catcher, how can any movement of the non-pivot not violate this rule? These two rules seem in conflict. (8.01a2 and 8.05a) Are there any case book situations?

Here is how I analyze these, which I believe ends up with the correct result even if for the wrong reasons:

In situation 1, if the pitcher doesn't disengage properly, then his throw to the plate while engaged is a quick pitch, which is a balk with runners on.

In situation 2, no balk because pitcher continues his delivery without interruption.

In both situations, watch for catcher leaving his box before ball leaves pitcher's hand, which is also a balk.

In order to qualify as a quick pitch, doesn't the batter have to be "not ready?"

So, let me complicate it for you:

Let's say that the pitcher toes the rubber as if he intends to pitch off the stretch. The batter steps into the batter's box and READIES himself. The pitcher gets the sign and is holding the ball behind his back. Then, all of a sudden, R3 takes off for home. The pitcher, startled, just whips the ball to the catcher.

What do we have?

The batter was ready. So can it really be considered a quick pitch?

Is this a legal delivery? If not - then it's a balk. Correct?

"The pitcher gets the sign and is holding the ball behind his back."

Now it sounds like the pitcher is in the Set Position. OK
Prior to delivering the ball to the batter, the pitcher must come to a Set Position and come to a complete stop. OBR

Again it sounds like a balk to me.

For the record Dave, was the pitcher in a windup or set position? Or are we creating different scenarios.

The question deals moreso in whether the pitcher is required to take a "rocker step" as part of his delivery to the plate, and whether he is required to "join hands" and "windup" in his motion.

We know in Fed that is not true.
Fed specifically states:
<ul>During delivery, he may lift his non-pivot foot in a step forward, or in a step backward and a step forward, but he shall not otherwise lift either foot.</ul>
They specifically allow delivery with only a step forward to the plate. No rocker step is required.
Additionally, you'll not find <u>any requirement</u> stating that his hands must join in the windup position.

<hr width=50%>
OTH, OBR states:
<ul>He shall not raise either foot from the ground, except that in his actual delivery of the ball to the batter, he may take one step backward, and one step forward with his free foot.</ul>
Now, while they state "he may", does that mean <u>he must</u>?
I don't think so, and neither does J/R.
I've not found the question specifically addressed by other sources.

J/R states:
<ul>[Windup Mode]
<ul>B. Terminal Stage (Motion to Pitch)
<ul>In the motion to pitch, the pitcher's free foot
<ul>(a) may (but not must) step once backward, and
(b) must step once forward.
Neither step may be lateral (toward first or third base).</ul></ul></ul></ul>
Since the pitcher <u>must</u> take one step forward and is not required to take a step backward, then the "rocker step" is not required. It would be interpreted the same as Fed. Still, he must legally step to where he is throwing (delivering the pitch).

J/R also adds:
<ul>The position of the hands may be apart or joined. Joining the hands is not required before the motion to pitch, nor does joining the hands after taking the position necessarily mean the pitcher has begun his motion to pitch.</ul>

Based on J/R (the only AO I found to specifically address these questions), neither action of the pitcher posed in the original question would be a balk.

Additionally, there is nothing that says the pitcher must use the same motion for each pitch. Hastening his motion to the plate should not be considered illegal provided he has met all other pitching requirements. Still, the batter must be ready when the pitch is delivered or a quick pitch could be called.

Both are legal pitches.



Just my opinion,

Freix

The feet determine whether a pitcher is in the set or windup position---not the hands.

In the set, the pitcher <u>must</u> come to a complete stop with both hands on the ball in front of his body. That requirement of meeting hands is nowhere to be found for the windup, therefore, it would not be a balk if he did not do it.

Anyway, based on past logic posted, since joining the hands in the windup is not listed as a balk wouldn't it just be a "<u>don't do that</u>" if , indeed, it was a requirement?
Why would it be a balk?
(I pose that to those who always refer to 8.05 as the listings for the <u>only</u> balks that could be called).


Just my opinion,

Freix

Open mouth, put foot in.

The first thing I did when I got home was to read the book, and lo and behold I couldn't have been more wrong.

Your right Freix, from the windup position it would not have been a balk. However from the second scennario presented, " pitcher toes the rubber as if he intends to pitch off the stretch", if considered the Set Position, the pitcher would (must) come to a complete stop before delivering the pitch.

David Emerling & others:

The information you provided, in and of itself, does not necessarily result in any violations. No 'balk' in either situation.

Please read 8.01 (b).... "From the 'set' position he may deliver the ball to the batter, throw to a base or step backward off the pitcher's plate with his pivot foot. Before assuming the Set Position, the pitcher M A Y elect to make any natural preliminary motion such as that known as "the stretch."

If a pitcher is determined to be in the 'Set Position,' with his hands together in front of his body he can, if he choses to do so, simply step and pitch the ball. Because you don't see it happening on a regular basis doesn't automatically mean that the pitcher is balking. We've all seen pitchers who (Wind Up Position) toe the rubber with their hands together. Visualize this. A pitcher, with his hands together assumes the 'Set Position' while he engages the rubber. He's not required to get or be given a sign by the catcher. The pitcher may just step and throw the ball.

Remember when you're reading a rule and you see "MAY," it simply means that he/she is not mandated to take such action; it's optional.

AN AFTER THOUGHT!

As umpires, most of us do not interpret what we 'see' in the same way. Nor do we explain that which we saw in the same way. I know that when it comes to the subject of 'balks' we vary greatly in our collective views and knowledge (assessment) of what is or is not a balk. No wonder many players, coaches and fans don't understand our position. It's obvious to me that many of us don't either.

I'm sure glad that brain surgery doesn't require any knowledge regarding what is or is not a 'balk.'

Sorry to burst your bubble, Ed, but no can do.
You seem to have forgotten about the other words of 8.01(b) that state:
<ul>Preparatory to coming to a set position, the pitcher shall have one hand on his side; from this position he shall go to his set position as defined in Rule 8.0l(b) without interruption and in one continuous motion.</ul>
Engaging the rubber with both hands in the glove to assume the set position is not allowable.


Just my opinion,

Freix

balk from WINDUP
 

etbaseball:
The pitcher is in the wind-up not set position.
A pitcher can assume the set position immediately, he is still required to come to a complete discernible stop. If this happens, he can no longer step toward home for a pick-off if runner at third is stealing home. Which is why, when the pitcher is in the wind-up, he must step off or pitch.

Hold on a second. In OBR, the pitcher can, from the Windup Position, "step and throw to a base in an attempt to pick off a runner." Whether the batter is in the box or not is irrelevant in a scenario where R3 is stealing home and F1 is attempting a pick off play at "Home Base". All that's required is for F1 to step directly to the base and throw. There's absolutely no requirement for F1 to step backward in this scenario. It's a pick-off attempt and nothing else. What's illegal or "balkable" (is that a word?) with that.

BTW . . . it makes no difference what pitching position F1 is in or whether he's on the rubber or not. As long as he makes a proper move/play to retire the advancing runner, he's done everything exactly proper.

Jerry

J/R says it's a pitch:
<ul>J/R states:
<ul>The windup and the set (or "stretch") are the two legal positions a pitcher can take when preparing to throw a pitch. A <b>pitch</b> [original emphasis]has occurred when a pitcher takes one of these positions, begins a motion to pitch, and legally steps and throws the ball toward home plate <b>while still in-contact with the pitching rubber</b> [my emphasis]. Either position may be used on any given pitch.</ul></ul>

For the pitcher not to deliver a pitch to the plate, he must legally disengage the rubber.
If he throws <u>from the rubber</u>, the throw is a pitch.


Just my opinion,

Freix

For the pitcher not to deliver a pitch to the plate, he must legally disengage the rubber. If he throws from the rubber, the throw is a pitch.

Steve,
Are those your words above, or J/R's? I'll go along with J/R's "Begins a motion to pitch" line that you cited, and call a balk if I judge that F1 has performed a "natural pitching motion (which) commits him to the pitch." I've got no reason to argue against the above interpretation either . . . if those are J's and R's exact words. Otherwise, I still have an attempted play on R3. Let me know what you've got.

Jerry

I indented J/R's words and not mine.
My words are my summary of J/R's verbage.

While on the rubber, any action of beginning a throw to the plate is a pitch, Jerry. The pitcher need not use the same motion everytime---he may vary his motions as long as all his motions are legal. Therefore, <u>at some point</u>, he uses a new motion <u>for the first time</u>. In this case, his throwing action <u>from the rubber</u> is, indeed, nothing more than another pitching motion---legal or illegal (balk). It's merely the first time he's used this pitching motion.

So, let's assume <u>the runner was not advancing</u>, and the pitcher made the same action:
<ol><LI>Would you consider it a pitch?
<LI>Would you consider it a quick pitch if the batter was not ready?
<LI>Or would you consider it a play (since R3 is standing on 3rd picking his nose)? </ol>
Jerry, my guess is that considering it a play would be your last choice.

As long as it is an effort to deliver the ball to the plate <u>from the pitching plate</u>, then you need to consider it a pitch. All in all it's rather simplistic---if a pitcher delivers to home plate from the pitching rubber, it is a pitch. F1 needs to know he must disengage the rubber in order to make a play to the plate.

(Hmmmm....that seems to closely correlate with the Fed caseplay)!!!!


Just my opinion,

Freix

Steve,
After reviewing J/R and the FED Casebook, I'm in full agreement we have a pitch . . . and a balk in this scenario because F1 failed to stop before delivering the pitch.

If R3 was not running however, you asked what I'd call:

Would you consider it a pitch? YES; and a Balk if the Batter was in the box.

Would you consider it a quick pitch if the batter was not ready? NO; If R3 was not running and the batter is not in the box, I'd call "NO PITCH", as soon as F1 made a motion to either come Set or throw Home. A "do over".

Or would you consider it a play (since R3 is standing on 3rd picking his nose)? Definately not a play, but then F1 wouldn't be doing that if R3 was just standing on 3rd.

Jerry

No fair, Jerry, the original action of the pitcher included delivering the ball to the plate.

Why not just use your pre-emptive timeout for all situations and save the headaches..................LOL


Freix

Steve:

Peace, my brother!

If a tree falls in the forest . . . or if a ball is thrown from the mound . . . and there's no one around to see it, swing at it, or trying to steal home . . . is it?

LOL at myself.

Jerry