Umpire overrules judgment call
 

I originally posted this on the "other forum," but I decided to give you guys a shot to sink your teeth into this:

I have finally quit seething over this enough to talk about it here:

Saturday, I worked 2 adult games with a former (long time ago) minor league umpire, who is also a former (not long ago) college umpire.

I had the plate the first game and did my usual awesome job:).

In the second game, I'm on the bases, I'm in C with R3, and F2 snapped a throw to 3rd to pick off R3. After a head-first slide in which R3 was clearly safe (fairly close play), there was a cloud of dust and R3 possibly lost contact with 3rd base briefly and MAY have been tagged, but I ruled him safe on the play.

Immediately, the defensive players were trying to pressure me into asking my partner, who is at home plate, for help on the play. Here is how it went from there (or words to this effect):

F5: Can you get help?

Me: No, that's my call. He's safe.

F1: We're just asking you to check with your partner. He had a good angle.

Me: Absolutely not. That's my call.

F1: No, really he wants to help.

Me: No, I'm not asking for his help.

(At this time my partner is walking out to where I'm standing pointing covertly at his chest as to tell me he has a differing opinion.)

Me to partner privately: I am not coming to you for help on this play.

Partner: I understand, but I saw him come off the base and get tagged and we just want to get the call right.

Me: But that's my call, and I'm willing to live with it if I blew the call. I'm not asking for you to take the call.

Partner: Well, I'm going to make the out call and I'll take any crap they give about it.

(At this time, partner signals "Out" and calls out R3. Offensive team comes unglued. They start ragging from the dugout. They wouldn't shut up about it, and somebody on the bench said, "Wow, that's horrible umpiring, BOTH of you." I told them to shut it down and that we won't hear any more of it. To which calls of "rabbit ears" were heard (I've never understood that one when they are SCREAMING at the top of their lungs, not whispering).

So I'm really the one taking crap for it, even though he said he would take all the crap, even though his strike zone sucked all day and they were all over him for that, plus his giving the count was so lazy and infrequent that players were complaining about it (gave 3-2 with a single closed fist and no vocal). And I hadn't missed a thing all day up until this point.

I was boiling hot over it for several innings, and when the game was over, at the car I told him that I didn't subscribe to the "get it right at all costs" philosophy on a safe/out call. I told him I didn't believe in taking someone's call without being asked. He told me that for the last 5 or 6 years they have been doing this at the college level, and that he would overrule his partner anytime he saw something different than his partner. I told him you do not do this on a judgment call on the bases, and that it undermines your partner. I also told him that this isn't college ball and we don't play under NCAA rules, we play by pro rules, and that the rule says no umpire shall seek to reverse another umpire's decision unless asked by the umpire that made the call.

I then finished changing, we said goodbye less than cordially, and both drove away.

What do you guys think about this? I think I got screwed, and I'm requesting to not work with this guy ever again. I worked with him when he was in the Texas League (briefly, he was fired and never worked pro ball again) in the 1980s when he was home on a break, and he thought he was hot sh!t back then too. But now he's not "all that" anymore and can barely get around the field. I outperform this guy six ways to Sunday, and I don't think it's right to undermine your partner by poaching his calls.

And I hope he's reading this, because boy, am I ever pissed!

Rush Limbaugh and Al Franken agree -- your partner shouldn't have overruled you.

Whether you should request not to work with him again and how that's handled in your association is a local thing that they know nothing about, but are willing to spend hours explaining it.

Hell ya get pissed, throw things around, kick your dog, cuss and scream...and then get over it. Things happen in every game, sometimes they make us mad sometimes not. I lost a good friend because I got mad at a call we made on the field, in the end it was not worth the agravation and lost friendship.

that my 2cents
Bugg

Time to close the thread. :D

Good reason to be upset. Sometimes your stuck in the mud with a partner and just have to swallow it and let him know how you felt afterwards. I believe in getting it right also but, this was your call all the way, period.

You may think you looked bad but, if you have officiated this league long enough and worked hard, I am sure the players know your reputation. You handled it professionally and that is about all you can do. Some guys work just for the money and can care less about the job they do. Sometimes you get stuck working with them. If it happens again, make sure you lay down the law in your pregame. If that doesn't work, put your hand in your pocket, feel the green and smile, knowing you did your best.

This is what comes of the "Get it right at all costs" mentality. It makes umpires think that they can run willey-nilly all over each other and that just sucks.

Your partner was an a$$ for coming to your to start with. He had no business coming to you unless you called him and we both know that.

As far as the "rabbit ears" comment, I think I would have gone straight at them (the dugout) and told them "You just invited me in here, so I am telling you to knock it off --- NOW!".

And I guarantee you, if I had to dump someone over this incident, I would have pointed to my partner and said, "That one's for you, hoss!".

That's obviously very bad. The guy broke a cardinal rule by gratuitously overruling his partner on a judgment call. I don't see how you can work with him again unless you're both clear about how you're going to handle those situations.

We've all seen our partner miss calls (and vice versa). But there were times when I was sure I saw something right, but in discussing the play, found out that he had seen something I hadn't. If it's his call and he doesn't want help, it's final.

I find this disturbing. How does F1 'know' that your partner wants to help? It sounds as if your partner was clearly giving signals that he didn't agree with your call.

I couldn't even see it till you quoted it. :mad:

Sorry.

I don't like the ignore lists, cause you know the person posted. I'd rather the board software eliminated any trace -- then I'd probably use them more.

I'm with Greymule on this one. Your partner had no business joining this fray - it was your judgement call to make or miss, and unless you ask for help he shouldn't be offering it.
We've both been around long enough to know that we should always "consider the source". If he thinks he can do it all, stay out of his way and let him - I'd never work with him again. If he does this to enough partners he'll finish out his storied career working alone, which is what he seems to want to do anyway.
His intentions might have been good enough - he may in fact have seen the hand off the bag - but unless you ask him for help he should have kept it to himself.
The end result was just what could have been predicted - you BOTH ended up looking bad. Hopefully he learned from what he did. I know you did. Hang in there -

JJ

I'm going to be checking out for a while. Too much stuff deleted for my liking around here. Too much trying to be nice to everyone, even the idiots who post here only to be idiots.

Bye.

I work college ball in So Cal and here is my 2 cents:

For the most part, we want to get the call right. That said. I understand why Steve did not want to get help. He was on top of the play. His partner is 90' away. However, in 2 man, sometime our eyes play tricks with us on plays @ 3rd. The best place, IMO, to make a call @ 3rd is near the coach's box. In 2 man we do not have that luxury. If the runner was tagged off the bag, he might be off the bag on the foul side. A base umpire can sometimes get straight-lined on that "look". Oviously the plate guy had a different "look" because he approached Steve tapping his chest. That was the plate guys 1st mistake. If I am the plate guy and I have info for my partner, I will let him know by my eye contact or body language. However, I WILL NOT approach him. I might take a few steps his way, but that's it. Now it is up to Steve if he wants to get help. If Steve gets help, his partner will tell him what he has. If I was Steve I would of asked " how bad did I miss it? was it close or was he out "bigtime"? If it was close, I would probually stick with my call. If I kicked it bad. For the sake of gettin' it right, I would probually change it. IT IS MY CALL TO CHANGE! Not my partners. Now the other coach will probually get "ran" if I change the call... but that's baseball.

I had this same play happen to me a few years back. Guy slid head first into
3rd......overslid..and was tagged out off the bag foul side. I was straighlined so I had to take a couple of steps in to see the runners' hand NOT on the bag. I called him out. It was 110% the right call. Coach wanted help. I refused..he got run. This stuff happens to us all. That is why we get the $125 to make the hard decisions. In Steve's case.. probually $65 cash on the field tax free. Still in this economy.. not bad for 3 hours work...I HOPE it wasnt more that 3 hours! :-)

On a side note, one of the reasons that the plate guy might have stepped in is because if he works college ball, he might feel that he is a superior umpire and has the come in and save the day. We have all worked on fields with weaker partners and felt we might have to pick up the slack if a sh!thouse arrives. However, we need to sometimes step back and let our partners earn their money. They have to learn the hard way too. I have never seen Steve work so I have no ideas of his skills. This is just an obsevation.

As both NCAA and Pro rules do not allow another umpire to "change" a call like this, I would have probably advised the runner to stay at third and told the PU to go back to his position. If PU insisted, I would remind him that the rule clearly states that he has no authority to change the call. Period. Some times you must educate the idiots in public....

Exactly - This guy was wrong from the word go. SDS you have every right to be ticked.

I want to get every call right too, but as the BU I'd have a hard time selling that my PU had any good look at this play. As PU if I had something overwhelmingly different (which I cant see a PU having a good look at a throw back to third and a possible tag as the runner may/may not have come off the bag well enough to be convinced you were wrong) I'd casually give one of the I've got info signals and wait patiently. If you never came, play ball, like you said, it's your call.

The problem with ignoring is if someone posts something you know to be wrong. Then, if you don't know about it, you can't correct it. As much as some would like to ignore others, I think it leads to other problems. And, is an indirect way of letting myths perpetuate.

Steve, I agree you were justified in being ticked off!! The only time as the PU I will interject myself on a partner's safe/out judgement call is if they call a runner out and they can't see the ball is on the ground.

I don't think I would have even hanging around with this dufus in the parking lot, just jump in the jaloppie and boogie.

What's so special about that?

What's the difference between that and an out call when the runner beat it by three steps?

If your partner blows one, and needs help, he can come to you.

Steve, if your partner, either by statement or by implication, conveyed what he did as an acceptable practice in either the minors or NCAA baseball, he is lying.

If red-lining partners is allowed where you are, get your pen out.

[QUOTE]Steve IMO, the aforementioned statement by F1 IF TRUE is a bigger issue.

Did your partner give F1 "some expression" , etc. indicating that you got the call wrong and is waiting for you to ask for help.

If INDEED the PU gave some indication to F1 that you blew the call and he was ready for you to ask for help, then IMO that's a far bigger problem then simply over-turning your call which is wrong all by it's lonesome.

FWIW I am getting sick and tired of this "get the call right at all cost" mentality because the FACT is we will NOT get every call right. It's part of life. Also, whose to say that your partner got the call right. Suppose you ruled safe because in your judgement, F5 pushed the runner off the base and the PU didn't see that part of the play etc. There could be a zillion reasons why you ruled the runner safe. The bottom line IT'S YOUR CALL PERIOD.

NO umpire has the right to over-turn a judgement call without you FIRST requesting assistance otherwise the game will become CHAOS.

I realize it's the "olden days" but IMO Carl's Fab V (back in the day) when a call can be changed should be the motto but unfortunately it is not.

FWIW here's Carl's list

I would also scratch this guy from future assignments

Pete Booth

$75, but who's counting?:rolleyes:

Exactly, I think that while I was talking to F5, F1 was watching my "partner" come walking out toward the discussion, when my "partner" should have been tending his little garden by home plate waiting for an invitation. This IS the part of it that infuriates me more than just saying, "well we're going to get the call right." The very first thing I told him when he got to my position uninvited was that I wasn't asking for his help. I couldn't have been clearer.

Might have been fun, after he told the runner he was out, to say: "No, you're safe, stay right there!"

You know, just to see what would happen. :eek:

My "partner" (for lack of a better word, a word which I can't say on this forum :p) has been in this adult association for a long time, I just finished my 6th week. I wanted to do this, but I think I would have looked like the bad guy if I hadn't just bit the bullet on this one. I won't have to worry about it happening again with this guy, because I won't be working with him in the future.

Steve....I would be willing to bet that after you've been involved with this association longer you'll findout (without ever asking another member directly) that this "partner" has pulled this kind of crab with other umpires that he has worked with.

I had a funny thought. Would suit him right if on the very next call on BR at 1B you just stand there, look at him and say "what you got hoss?".

I would not want to work with him again and would let assignor know what happened. In my association the word on him would spread quickly.

Obsurd, but equally funny............
On next pitch when PU says "strike" come out firing with "No No No - That was a bit low - Ball !!"

Matt, refer to Pete Booths post on Carls Fab 5. I was speaking of when I would step in an provide input without being asked for help.

Yup, thought about doing that too.

Yes, that's my famous..."BALLLLRIKKKE" call.

Steve,

I can tell you what I would have done, for what it's worth. As soon as he called the runner out, I would have headed for the truck, gone home and called the assignor, and let the chips fall where they may. If he's going to make my calls, he doesn't need me out there. But that's because I've been in the associations I belong to for a long time, and don't have to worry about not getting assignments again should something like this ever happen to me. You're probably not in that position yet in this association, so I understand why you didn't walk.


Tim.

Exactly what I was thinking as I was reading this.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding your meaning. In my association, even if I request assistance, my partner still has no right to overturn my judgement call. He only has the right to privately share what he saw, and I then have a decision to make--either stick with my call or change it.

That's exactly what we are saying. Steve's partner was totally out of line in changing the call. If Steve wanted to change it after talking to his partner (and his partner should wait to be asked for advice), he would have done it himself.

I finally was able to get ahold of my assignor, who agrees with us 100%, and that he was way out of line and has no business even having an opinion without being asked for help. He is planning to umpire with me this weekend just to make sure that it won't happen a second time!:)

[QUOTE]Tim:

I strongly recommed against leaving.

First things first

If you got paid your game FEE at the plate and then you leave IMO, you must return the game Fee.

I believe we have all worked with partners in which we could not wait until the game was over.

if you are at work and part of a team meeting or any other meeting and one person acts like a jerk are you going to leave the meeting?

IMO, you "suck it up" get through the game as best you can and then "settle things in the parking lot" where it belongs.

I would NOT take the heat though. If the coach(s) came out I would simply say "Go talk to him" PERIOD. I would not even entertain the discussion since my partner over-turned my call.

Most likely as the game continues someone will get tossed because inevitably since the umpires are NOT on the same page words will be said and even if your partner over-tunred your call there is only so much you can let go on before the game gets out of control.

In Summary: You do the best you can under adverse conditions. It's no different then playing the game and you lose one or 2 of your star players. You are playing at a disadvanatge but you "suck it up' and do the best you can.

After the game away from everybody is where you get your point across. I would be "up front' and simply say "Joe I cannot work with you under these type of conditions. You had no right to overturn my call. I am calling the assignor because I cannot work with you." IMO< that's not rating out your partner but telling him "up front" what the deal is. Back-stabbing is when you are chicken s*** do not say anything but then go behind the persons back and rat them out. If I tell someone "mono on mono" that's not back-stabbing.

Pete Booth

I worked with a partner that was unfit to be on the field (a little drunk?? high on weed?? neglected to take his meds??), in addition to having zero honor and zero integrity and a massive ego.

After several glaring incidents, I was going to send him home and finish myself, or suspend the game if he refused to leave. I can handle virtually anything, but this guy was stretching it to the maximum. It was a travesty, and not a ballgame.

I somehow finished the travesty of a game, and somehow avoided a hand and wrist injury when he got in my face in the parking lot (women and children would have seen it).

I deeply regretted not stepping in and sending the guy home before the game even started, but this always-support-your-partner-no-matter-what thing prevailed, and to this day, I haven't even ratted the guy out to the assignor, even though he should be nowhere near a legitimate ballgame (some of the politics are pretty extreme in that assn.).

He's like a weed: he has no place on a baseball field. Guys like him are why I umpire in the first place.

While I did not tell this guy that I was going to scratch him from future games, or talk to the assignor about it, he should expect it for pulling that kind of crap. I did tell him just how I felt about it and that I wasn't going to huddle up and sing Kumbaya every time I might blow a judgment call. My assignor won't be talking to him either, he just won't put me with him anymore.

Umpire Overrules Judgement Call
 

Steve,
The sad part is the other official feels he did not do anything wrong. In his eyes, he saved the day from an incompetant umpire. Until all assignors refuse to use him, he will keep on keeping on. He will then find another association and the story will continue.

When I was assigning, I encouraged the officials to let me know when there were problems on the field with coaches , parents, officials etc. When it was with another official I would call and get his side of the story and let him know what was expected of him by the association. There were times officials were given some time off, just to get the point across. Not very often though and it was a board decision.

The bottom line here was, when one umpire looks bad, the entire team looks bad and it reflects negatively on the association. Believe me this is true. As an assignor I would always nip this in the butt real fast. This is where training, evaluation and meetings become an intragal part of your organization and when handled properly you weed out those that want to do their own thing.

What Steve's partner did was unacceptable.

I thought his response to his partner's idiocy was "dead on" and highly professional. I would feel like doing as some have suggested - walking off, find an opportunity to throw him under the bus, etc. - but that just makes you look bad.

Steve got through the game, maintained his dignity, and addressed the issue directly with his partner after the game and then his assignor. (Were it me, I would be disappointed that the assignor was not planning on addressing it.)

In the real world, seems to me the best way to deal with it.

JM

I would love it if he did address it, but as a newbie with a new assignor, I don't want to push it too far. I like the assignments I get.:)

For the one "offence" as in the OP, I would not walk off. I would work the game but I wouldn't take any crap for his changing my call. I would make sure that every call I made was on the money. I would in position and professional because I would not be going to him for any assistance of any kind.

However, if he did it again after that, I would defiantly huddle with him and inform him that he has proven to me that he no longer needs me and I would leave. As far as the game fee goes, to hell with that! That is my compensation for dealing with this moron.

Had it been a situation where the partner just stepped up and overturned the call, I would agree that like you, Ozzy, I would have stayed. But as it went down:

"Me: But that's my call, and I'm willing to live with it if I blew the call. I'm not asking for you to take the call."

Partner: Well, I'm going to make the out call and I'll take any crap they give about it."



I would have walked in a heartbeat. What the guy did after Steve told him he wasn't asking for him to take the call was basically telling Steve -

"F*&$k off, I'm doing it anyway."

He obviously doesn't need me on the field.............


Tim.

Tim, I could agree if that was the only reason you were there, to compete with your partner. And believe me, there have been contests that I would have gladly returned the money and left because of the ahole I was working with. But, when you ask for assignments and receive them, you are basically entering into a contract to officiate a baseball game, for which you receive compensation. By walking off that field, you look just as bad as your partner in the eyes of the players, coaches and fans. You can't lower your professional standards just because your working with an idiot.

I walked off of a field once, with my partner and that was because we were being abused constantly in an adult league and felt that our efforts were futile and our safety was jeapordized. The money could still be on the pitchers mound for all we know, and our association backed us up 100%.

Just remember, you don't just represent yourself out there, and that same "ego" that is necessary to be a good official sometimes has to be tempered when things don't go your way.

But I can respect were your coming from.