13-u national AAU tournament, FED Rules. Runner on 2nd and F4 is yelling "back back". I (BU) quietly ask F4 to ease up. I did not get any flack, but coach did ask me why his players could not do this. IMO it could be verbal obstrution, and I put a stop to it. Is this nit picking?
What can the players get away with i.e. dugout yelling I got it! on a pop-up, or step-off to the pitcher?

Nope, never heard of verbal obstruction.

I do not recall ever hearing of verbal obstruction, but I have heard of verbal interference, which is what I would label what I think you are talking about. I believe its considered verbal interference (as opposed to obstruction) in any case, regardless of whether the offendor is on offense, defense, on field, off field, etc. Anyone dis/agree??

Yes there is verbal obstruction as well as verbal interference.

Fed 2.22

Obstruction is an act (intentional or unintentional, as well as physical or verbal) by a fielder, any member of the defensive team or its team personel that hinders a runner or changes the pattern of play....



Fed case book 2002--2.21.1

"R1 attempts to steal second. F2, upon receiving the pitch, throws a pop-up to F6. F5 yells "get back, get back." R1 thinks B2 has hit a pop-up and starts back to first where he is tagged out.

Ruling: This is verbal obstruction and R1 shall be awarded second base.


What I am looking for is guidelines on what can or can not be said. Does it very with the level or age of the players?

i think this falls under the same play as a fake tag in fed rules. i liked the way you handled it by telling the kid to tone it down.

I think you handled it well. He hindered him by yelling back. That's your judgement. Coach wants to know why he can't do that? In youth ball my answer is. "Coach at higher levels that kinda bush crap is self enforced (aka bean balls etc.). There is no room for that in a youth game so we enforce it."

Bob

Can you give me rule reference for OBR?

Nope ....
 

His game was played under FED rules and they do have this covered. So in his game good call.

As for OBR, when doing a LL game, I'll hide behind 9.01c. I mean, EJ a kid for throwing a bat is not in the OBR and LL supports an ejection for that under 9.01c. With the 1 game suspension it seems harsh so I take a twist out of something a wise umpire once told me. I ask the coach if he can sub for the kid before the next at bat. Smart coach is appreciative of my efforts to not EJ.

I don't think in higher levels of ball this would be up to you to enforce though. Bean balls and metal cleats would take care of it. I must say that's an unqualified opinion because I don't do those levels of ball.

Bob

<i> Originally posted by Umpire_Jeremy </i>

<b> Can you give me rule reference for OBR? </b>

There is no such animal as Verbal Obtsruction in OBR. It only exists in FED.

From Carl Childress's 2002 BRD page 175 Play 141-332

R1,R3: F1 pauses in the set position. From the defensive first-base dugout, someone yells "BACK" R1 reacts by diving towards first. As r1 scrambles back, F1 throws wildly toward third, with the ball ricocheting off the fence and heading for the bullpen. As F5 and F7 chase the ball, R3 scores. Meanwhile, R1 gets up and advances around second base but is thrown out on a close play at third with F6 covering..

<b> RULING: </b>
In FED, r1 was "verbally" obstructed. The obstruction clearly made the difference in the play at third so the out is cancelled, with r1 remaining on third.

In NCAA / OBR, R1 was simply gullable: He should know the difference between his coach's voice and voices of the defense. His out stands.

Now in FED, if the runner had been out a long way at third, then the umpire should rule that the runner tried to advance beyond a base he would have received on the obstruction, which in this play is second.

Pete Booth

Do not be an anal umpire. Adjudge by the rules. Don't go looking for things. If it is a problem, the coach will let you know. Then ask him what rule he is referencing? Let the game play. If it happens to be piss poor gamemanship, bad luck on you part. But don't be anal.

BTW...did we see if the bats were properly in there place and all buckets put away. Give me a break! Play ball!!!

So what you are saying is we wait for the coaches to tell us that there is a problem?

So when the pitcher in the wind-up (FED rules) steps & throws to first I wait for the coach to call it?

So when The batter grazes the pitch and the catcher fields it clean for a foul tip, I wait for the coach to call it?

So when R1 slides into the pivot man @2nd with his nails up and opens up the guy's shin I wait for the coach to call it?

Now who's being anal?

It's our job to call the game rules. FED has more rules to the game than OBR. Some of them seem stupid but we have to call them just the same. My friend, if you wait for the coaches to call the shots, I don't ever want to be on the field with you!!!!!!!!!!

Verbal obstruction is only supported in rule by the Fed.
There is no "verbal obstruction" under OBR.

It's <u>your judgment</u> as to whether verbal obstruction exists. I would not consider this verbal obstruction---even if a coach complains. I've never seen a player return due to an opposing player's yell of "back". Still, you may judge as you wish. IMO, you're looking up your nostril here and about to find a booger. That's <u>my judgment</u>.


Just my opinion,

Freix

Agreed,
 

I ALWAYS comment when I agree with Steve since it is not very often.

FEDlandia has decreed that it is an issue therefore there is a rule.

OBR (for players of shaving age) has decreed that there is no problem. If a player is gullible then so be it.

Any umpire (working OBR with players that shave)that would consider 9.01 (c) to cover this is being overly officious.

I agree completely with bFair on this one occasion. :-}

OZZY,

What I am saying, is if it is not in the rule book, don't go out looking to create "stuff".

FED rules or not, don't go looking for dirt. I guy steals second base. Second baseman says foul ball, so the runner listens to him and goes back to first, where he is tagged out along the way. Are you going to stop the game and call verbal instruction and award the runner second anyway because he (probably a 17 year old) does not know to only listen to an umpire or base coach?

What will the audience think? Now you are going to have to explain why you are awarding him second base AFTER he was caught of the bag and tagged! Tell me how you get out of this? I will tell you...by not being anal and letting the kids play. There is no rule about that, so why make one up...and then try to enforce it!!!

So be my guess, friend, be anal and call everything you think is UNFAIR, not just the rules. We will be there for about 4 hours trying to finish a game while making everyone HAPPY!!!

There are Fed rules we may like and those we may not like. In those we don't like we may attempt to let <u>our judgment</u> sway away from enforcing the rule the way the Fed would like us to. Yet, there are times when we are hit over the head with the rule and can't ignore it. The Fed has verbal obstruction, and I don't see how you could NOT enforce verbal obstruction in the example you provide should this runner be tagged out. IMO, you just got hit over the head.

It might be best to intervene with preventative officiating and advise the runner that the ball <u>was not</u> a foul, thus causing him to stay at 2B and not allowing verbal obstruction to come into play. <u>If the defender causes an issue</u> by complaining about your intervention, call the verbal obstruction, and award the runner 3B. Afterall, the runner already had 2B when the defender committed the verbal obstruction, correct? He must be awarded one base beyond his current base, correct? The rules will support your award, and the verbal obstruction will disappear from the game. As long as you've got the issue now raised by the defender, you might as well get it right. A correct call is easier to defend than an incorrect call. Still, I'd recommend trying to avoid the issue by nipping it in the bud. It's likely never to become an issue.

The Fed is anal regarding verbal obstruction as evidenced by the most ridiculous caseplay I've ever seen written. From the Fed 2001 website:
<ul><b>SITUATION 14:</b> With runners on first and second and one out, the batter hits a ground ball to the shortstop. The second baseman calls "I got it" and acts as if it is a pop up. The runners stay at their respective bases and a double play is made, second to first.

<b>RULING:</b> This is verbal obstruction. Runners will be awarded third and second. There are two outs since the out on the batter-runner will stand. (2-22-1; 8-3-2)</ul>

Did these idiot runners stay at their bases because F4 yelled "I got it?"
Cannot the runners see when the ball is hit that it's a groundball?
Did they not know they are forced to advance?
They obviously didn't hear an infield fly called!!!!
So...where are the base coaches on this play to protect these idiots?

Still, the Fed protects the runners (and apparently coaches) against their own felony stupidity should it occur---the same way it should be done in your example if you're calling by Fed rules. Don't let it occur.


Just my opinion,

Freix

Thanks Freix, you saved me a lot of time.

You see Whowefoolin, we have to call FED games the way that the rules state. We don't care what the fans think, the players need consistancy. I can understand why in some of these interstate tournaments using FED, some of the coaches and players become confused when they come to my state. We call the FED rules no matter weather we disagree with them or not and our games average 1 to 2 hours!

I've called verbal obstruction twice that I can remember. the runner's should have known their coach's voice but they screwed up and the FED rules protect them if they are 13 or 18 years old. As a matter of fact if I do a game with older players, I inform them at the ground rules that if they really want to play by FED, they get all of it or none at all!

Verbal Obstruction
 

It's amazing how a game can deteriorate into long drawn-out, get-even, trash talking mess by letting deception plays go unincumbered. Kids will attempt to get even, coaches may encourage, parents will be on your case.
ex: During a legion game: It started when F6 of the visiting team stepped into the baseline attemping a double play, 2nd to 1st. R1 slides hard into 2nd and took him out. A good hard play and hopefully a learning experience for F6. Visiting coach was wild. Wanted the kid EJ'd out for Unsportsman like. Later, F6 is now batter, hits ball and is racing to first, Throw causes F3 to step toward home. B1 stays right down the middle and flares elbows a little. Plain as day for me but nobody else could see it. Looks like legit. train wreck. I went to the coach and asked him to remove him if he wants to play that way. Coach blew up again on me. My comment: "Coach, take care of it or I will." The game went on with no further hitches. Umps are paid to control the game.

Re: Verbal Obstruction
 

<i> Originally posted by ccbestul </i>

<b> Umps are paid to control the game. </b>

I agree but we are not paid <b> to be part of the game </b> whihc unfortunately we have to become because players / coaches do not.

There's an ole adage <b> Don't fool around with Mother Nature </b> which is what amateur athletics did by creating all these safety caveats. If you think the rulemakers put these safety rules in for the kids think again it's about insurance isssues and people sue happy.

When I played we played <i> like the BIG BOYS </i> and you know what it was a better game for all invovled. Blue didn't have to <i> police </i> the game the way we have to today. Back then the game took care of itself.

Did we have our share of scraps or 2 Sure but Nothing and I mean Nothing like today.

Example; B1's job is to run through the bag and the throw from say F6 pulls F3 off the bag and both B1 and F3 collide perfectly legal except:

B1 / F3 get up and the glaring match starts over a perfectly legal play. Each doing what they are supposed to: B1 running hard trying to beat out an infield hit and F3 fielding his position.

What does all this mean - The rule-makers especially FED are doing their best to put in rules to avoid the unsportsmanlike acts.

Let's take this thread and one of the opposing players yelled GET BACK! and caused one of our runners to retreat unnecssarily and as a result was thrown out in trying to advance because he lost a good 5-6 steps by diving back to first base. Ok let the out stand.

Now the player who caused our runner to be thrown out comes to bat - guess what Some nice <i> Chin Music </i> and the Game took care of itself. Today if F1 throws chin music get ready for armagedon.

Unfortunately people want baseball to be contact free and while not like football, hockey or basketball, baseball played <b> THE RIGHT WAY </b> is not free of contact.

Officials are declining in numbers because even with the FEE structure it just isn't worth it. Umpiring should be fun but when a simple play turns into armagedon it isn't fun anymore. I feel like telling some of these teams "hey guys if you want to go at one another there's a Golden Gloves tournament coming up why don't you sign up"

I think the main reason for the change in attitides is the Coaches / parents because even though times have changed kids are kids however, they take <i> their lead </i> from the coaches / parents

If you could take away the coaches and the Fans and simply play REAL baseball one would see the difference.

Pete Booth

Verbal Obstruction
 

I don't disagree with PeteBooth. I would say that 90% of all games are played by baseball players. Unfortunatly, coaches are expected to win not play baseball. Most high school age kids don't have the control to throw chin music, they don't know how to play 1st base properly, they cannot turn a proper double play. In my day the coached yelled at me if I did not slide correctly, set-up properly for throws, or take the extra base on a mental error. Some of these kids are taught intimidation and get-away-with plays. Thats why we have become the controllers of the game. Is it right? This day and age, thats a mute point.

Sounds like the infield fly rule would apply here. So the verbal obstruction overrules an infield fly rule? Wow, didn't know. Fed is a different animal then. I have done some Fed before and don't remember that ruling. But I am sure it is in there.

I just can't see it though. Let's say the kid at second truely does say he has it, drops the ball because of wind/sun/bad glove and then picks it up and doubles every one up. Who is going to judge that the kid didn't do it on purpose or he did? Tough call.

What happens if a pop-up happens and you have pitcher/short/Second all converging on it yelling they have it. Then at the last minute, they all let it drop (as we see so many times) thinking the other has it. But they pick it up quick enough to double up runners. You calling batter runner out and awarding bases because of this rule?

Good Luck. I will keep out of Fed for a while.