I went to watch an 8yr. old AABC Regional game last week and saw an interesting situation. Runners on first and third, two outs. The batter hit a grounder that went foul but was spinning and came back to hit first base and then roll on out towards right field. PU immediately called foul ball. The coaches were hollaring to their kids to run not paying attention to the PU. The batter ran to first R1 went to 2nd and R3 went home. Now, when the kids had heard PU declare the ball to be foul...they automatically stopped playing defense. Both team coaches went to confer with PU, then the BU came into the conversation and told the PU he was wrong with his call and the ball was in fact a fair ball, the runners would stay and the run scored. The defensive coach was upset since they lost the game by one run.

This is the first time I've seen the BU overturn the PU in front of the coaches without confering with each other first in private. He basically said to the PU he was stupid, I was shocked at this kind of officiating since it was during a Regional game.

I'm sure more experienced umpires wouldn't have called the ball foul until the ball is touched in foul territory but for the BU to humiliate the PU in front of all.....I just think that it could've been handled better. To my understanding after the game both umpires got reprimanded.

I don't know . . .
 

It is a huge pet peve of mine for umpires to call "FOUL" before the ball is actually considered foul.

The fact of the matter is . . . I think they should have considered the ball foul at that point whether it was the right call or not. Once the umpire calls a ball foul, the play is dead.

On further note . . . you're right. An umpire can never overturn another umpire's decision. NEVER! One umpire can ask the others for help . . . but if he makes the call. The call stands. (At least it should by mechanics unless there is a ruling at hand).

Seems to me that both of these fellas didn't have their best game on this day. I'm interested in seeing what our experienced members have to say about this situation.

Hopefully, they agree with me.

You guessed 'er, Chester!
 

The Plate Ump should be embarrassed by his premature call, and the Base Ump by his erroneous attempt to correct a bad foul ball call.

Once "foul" is declared, that's it. Runners stop running, fielders stop fielding, and most importantly, Umpires stop umpiring.

A call of "foul ball" effectively kills all action with a bang. In between innings, the Base Ump could comment and critique, but it won't change the fact that he should NOT comment or offer advice without being asked.

Senior

[Edited by senior on Jul 27th, 2002 at 08:52 PM]

So then, IF asked for help by the PU (if you are the BU)... What do you say? The PU is my partner, and we are eachother's only friends. IMHO, I dont care how wrong he is... That play was his judgement, and I am not going to verbally disagree with his judgement in front of coaches if I have the slightest feeling that he is only asking me because he feels pressure to from the coaches. I will only tell him how I feel (while the play is still being discussed) if he asks me and i think that he really wants to know what i really think...and even then, i will pull him to the side to talk to him about it alone. So back to what I was really gonna ask... If he asks for your opinion in front of the coaches, would most of you just agree with him even know you knwo he is wrong... do you just pull some BS like "hey, it was your call, you called it how you saw it, right??? Call stands, let's play." Or something else?

That's right . . .
 

First of all . . . if an umpire makes a call. He should never ask for help afterwards. If he was able to see the play good enough and make a call under his own judgement, that is the end of the story.

In my (brief) experience in umpiring, this has happened to me more than once. And yes Ryan . . . I normally dilly-dally around the subject or just plainly agree with my base umpire. I've NEVER disagreed with him and I never will. Because like you and I have calculated . . . the only reason an umpire asks for help after he makes a call is because he is feeling pressure from the coach.

Now if he asks me in front of the coaches after the game or something . . . that's a different story. I'm pretty outspoken. If he really wants to know my opinion . . . I'll tell him. Just never on the field.

To all umpires. If you make a call. Stand firm with your ruling. If you're out of position to make a call . . . ask for help. Those are your options.

Discretion is the better part of valor!
 

I can't imagine a partner asking for help AFTER calling a foul, but if he did, I'd certainly get real close to him before responding....and then I'd tell him to go get the ketchup from the concession stand, because he'll have to eat the "foul" call. Not in nasty manner, but I'd be leery of this partner until you worked together several more times, and he exhibited some better evidence of rule knowledge. Fair-foul, Ball-strike, safe-out are ones he better not have trouble with, because it all begins with those calls and gets more difficult from there on. A hit ball hitting a base is not something he should need help with, BEFORE or AFTER making a call.

Senior

Call time out and step away from the coaches and discuss what you saw with your partner. Then have the official that made the ruling declare the final decision.

I was the BU on a Varsity HS game, in the A position. The ball was hit down the first base line. About 1 foot before the bag, the ball hit something and took a sharp right turn into foul territory. The PU's last view of the ball was fair and then he was blocked out by the batter/runner. He declared the ball fair. I immeadiatly put my hands up and announced foul. Called time out, moved away from the coaches and discussed it with my partner. He was concerned about overuling the call, but I convinced him that I was 100% positive that it was foul, and it was better to get the call right. We took some heat but both coaches new it was the correct call.

We were partners for all of our games, so we were comfortable with each others officiating however sometimes this isnt the case and one official will show up the other. You should always support your partner but if your not going to, dont do it on the field. Dissagree after the fact if they do not want to discuss with you. My partner and I had an understanding that it was more important to get the call right, then to try and BS your way out of the situation. This will come back to haunt you and earn you less respect then changing your call and taking some heat.

"Coach, my pard called a foul ball, the runners are going back. I don't care if you think its right or wrong"

I ALWAYS back up my pard on a judgement call, even if for some reason he asks me for help, maybe pressure from coaches. One of the only two times this has happened was when I was PU (leadoff batter of the inning) and I clearly saw that the runner was safe, he asked me, we talked I said "Look Rogy, I got your back on that call, I am agreeing with you no matter what." Ever since then we never have talked about judgement calls. That was very disrecptful on the BUs part and furthermore the coaches have lost respect for both umps.

Proof that the World is ENDING soon
 

How can you have a "Regional" anything for EIGHT year olds.......god......




>>>I went to watch an 8yr. old AABC Regional game last week

Think what you may, but these 8 yr. olds are good. I watched these boys pitch and it's amazing. One of the pitchers has two uncles that pitched in the "Big Show" years back when Randy Johnson pitched for the Mariners. Both are retired and one of them is now the head pitching coach for one of the Mariners farm club teams. (Don't remember the level of minors.)

Now I could agree with you if I just went to watch just any 8 yr. old team play. Some of those games are a joke, but not these guys. They're really good. Also, the World Series is being played right now in Atlanta, Georgia. So take it from there......

"Think what you may, but these 8 yr. olds are good"

Maybe so, but few, if any, 8-year olds are emotionally ready for this kind of pressure.

Bob

Re: That's right . . .
 

I find this recommendation to be pure crapola-----
------especially from one who brandishes his "brief" experience as an umpire.

While it's not good mechanics to have to reverse a call, reversing a call is generally done after obtaining information from your partner(s) after you have made an obviously poor call. All sets of rules, in one way or another, puts greater importance on getting the call right vs. protecting your perceived dignity---which is usually perceived by coaches as arrogance. There are factors beyond "feeling pressure from the coach" why a call should be reversed. How about---you blew it, and you know it as well as everyone else in the ballpark. I will agree, however, that if you saw the play and are certain of the call, you should not seek your partner's help merely to appease a complaining coach.

While not all wrong decisions can be reversed, living with an obviously poor decision that could be corrected does not have to occur---especially because somebody with "brief" experience advocates it as the proper thing to do. Gold Spark, those who make the rules disagree with you. You might wish to read them a little closer.

If you have legitimate reason to believe you have blown a call, and you are uncertain of your original call (but you were forced to make that decision due to the play circumstances), getting additional information from a partner may help you get the call correct if the play situation allows for that. Better to correct a call and get it right than look like and be a horse's a$$ by standing by an obviously wrong decision.

Gold Spark, I find your advice extemely poor and highlight it for that reason. Hopefully, the more experience you gain the better your initial calls will be, and the need to gain additional help and reverse a call will be minimized. Perhaps you've achieved that already.


Just my opinion,

Freix

<font color=blue>Just my opinion,

Freix<font color=blue>

If my partner asks me for help, I'm telling him what I saw.
He can then decide to use it or not. If I think he made a hor$e$hit call, I'll tell him that. He's probably there asking me to begin with because he has reason to believe he blew it. Nobody else is hearing what we are discussing.

If he comes to me on a check swing, I'll call what I think unless he's put himself in trouble by delaying too long or (in Fed) making the the mistake of arguing with the defense about not gaining help on the swing. If ever in doubt when being asked, I'll agree with pard. But if I'm certain of the call, I call what I see when asked.

Making a call different than your partner <u>when you are brought into the play by him</u> is NOT backstabbing your partner. Sometimes you are providing him exactly what he wants---HELP to get the call correct. That's why he came to you. Two wrongs don't make a right---they make an arrogant crew---especially if you know the call is wrong. Just be certain to only respond to your partner. Needless comments to anyone regarding a partner's call should not be done.


Just my opinion,

Freix

Now to deal with why the BU did what he did.

Just a thought. We've got a guy who transfered from a different association. All this guy does is badmouth his partners. Yet the guy personally is horsechit. "Why should I polish my shoes, they'll just get dirty" bad mechanics and the whole lot.

I've got a feeling there was a lot of history with the PU, and ALTHOUGH I'D NEVER DO SUCH A THING, the BU was sticking it to him. Maybe.

And no, I'm not talk about the Moose.

Freix,

I apologize, mabey I should have been clearer. I used the wrong word "declare". My partner indicated by pointing fair because he made the assumption that the ball passed over the bag after he last saw it. Yes, I agree at that point it is my call, but we were giving conflicting information and it needed clarification to get right. I apologize if our mechanics were not perfect that day, but Sh$$ happens.

"Better to correct a call and get it right than look like and be a horse's a$$ by standing by an obviously wrong decision."

This is exactly the point I was making.

Thanks for the Help.

mmmmmmm Ok . . .
 

My mistake Bfair. I'll bite your logic and apologize for my general advice. However, I don't totally agree with you and I believe you picked my statement apart in the wrong way.

"First of all . . . if an umpire makes a call. He should never ask for help afterwards. If he was able to see the play good enough and make a call under his own judgement, that is the end of the story."

The above statement is suppose to indicate that the umpire is confident in his call and furthermore, should have no reason to ask for help.

Here's where our discussions differ . . . I say:

" . . . the only reason an umpire asks for help after he makes a call is because he is feeling pressure from the coach."

You say:

"There are factors beyond "feeling pressure from the coach" why a call should be reversed. How about---you blew it, and you know it as well as everyone else in the ballpark.I will agree, however, that if you saw the play and are certain of the call, you should not seek your partner's help merely to appease a complaining coach."

Now I say that if your partner sees something that you didn't . . . then he should call timeout . . . come to you . . . ask you if you saw the same thing and if you didn't . . . from there you can make the decision of whether to reverse a call or not. But that's not you asking for help. How are you supposed to know if you missed something? That's ridiculous logic there.

Furthermore, if you blow a call and you know it and everyone else in the ballpark knows it. Change it right there. Reverse the call yourself. No problem.

Our misunderstanding arises from this statements . . .

"To all umpires. If you make a call. Stand firm with your ruling. If you're out of position to make a call . . . ask for help. Those are your options."

And I understand your side of the story. But this statement coincides with the discussion. It should be taken . . . IN CONTEXT. ------> Pressure from coaches

Therefore . . . I agree 100% with "those who make the rules". And that's why I "read them a little closer" everyday.

"If you have legitimate reason to believe you have blown a call, and you are uncertain of your original call (but you were forced to make that decision due to the play circumstances), getting additional information from a partner may help you get the call correct if the play situation allows for that. Better to correct a call and get it right than look like and be a horse's a$$ by standing by an obviously wrong decision."

If you have legitimate reason to believe you have blown a call . . . what made you make the call in the first place? You call what you see. Bottom line . . . legitimate reason? What? Mental Instant Replay? I don't get it.

I've made calls that I've thought were close. I called them to the best of my ability and was confident that I made the right call.

So are you saying that just because the play was close . . . I should seek help? Seems kinda too dependent to me and if I were coaching, I wouldn't be too confident in the umpire calling the game. (If he had to ask for help on any . . . legitimately close calls)

Give me an example or something Bfair. SHOW me an instance in which your opinion is relevant. But don't just try to throw my "brief experience" back into my face and make me look like an a$$.

Gold Spark, let's start at the point that we both definitely agree. Don't go to your partner for the mere purpose of appeasing a coach. <b>If you are certain of your call as you saw it, then stick with it---and know how to handle the complaining coach.</b> Don't use your partner as a scapegoat from your situation.

You say:
<uL>First of all . . . if an umpire makes a call. He should never ask for help afterwards. If he was able to see the play good enough and make a call under his own judgement, that is the end of the story.</ul>
Since calls are basically designated to specific umpires, we are sometimes forced to make calls where we don't have all the information we'd like, but yet we <u>must make a call</u>. We don't always have the luxury of assurance that our partner <u>has</u> that additional information to clear our doubt. This is needing additional information, not asking for his opinion of the "timing" of the play. The decision on the "timing" of the call remains yours---right or wrong. Don't seek a 2nd opininon merely because it' a close call; do so only when <u>you know</u> you have doubt due to being blocked out on angle and you have good reason to believe you've blown the call. Also consider the angle your partner has. If a throw from F6 potentially pulls F3 off 1B down the rightfield line, does PU have the best angle, or do you? Obviously, you as BU have the best angle on that call, so why ask PU? There's no reason to seek help even if your partner thought differently----<u>YOU</u> had the best angle to make the decision, and <U>YOU</U> saw and called the play.

Prime example is R2 only with BU in C position and a ground ball to F6.
This situation is often used to show the flaw inherent in the 2-man system. In amateur play, that initial play could go to 3B, 2B (diving back), or 1B on the BR. That initial call remains the responsibility of BU. The best he can do is move to the back of the mound and react to the play. <u>He cannot overcommit anywhere</u> until F6 makes a play. By the time it's decided that the play will go to 1B, he cannot gain adequate ground to be in good position for a pulled foot or swipe tag.

Hopefully, PU will still be available for aid if needed, but BU doesn't always know for sure---especially if working with an unfamiliar partner. Some PU's break for 3B for a play that never happens---abandoning that good angle on the foot or swipe tag. (As PU I'm <u>always</u> watching 1B line in case my partner needs help). If you are confident PU is watching and ready to help, you can and should gain that help before making the initial call. It's great crew coordination (that looks great) when done properly.

If you don't have that confidence in your partner, you must make the call. <b>If I'm in doubt regarding a pulled foot or swipe tag, I'll always call this runner safe.</b> I make the defense <u>prove</u> the out to me. Should a call be reversed later, it will make it an out. Play proceeds as if the runner is safe. A coach's or crowd's reaction can, at times, tell you that there was doubt elsewhere about the successful tagging of the base or player. After the play is over, you can privately converse with your partner and change the call if needed---but only if he's <u>certain</u> the base or player was tagged. Still, if you are certain of your original call, there is no need discuss it with your partner. Tell the coach it's your call, and you saw the entire play---the call stands.

While some say it's <u>illegal</u> to change this call, I say hogwash. There is proof of changing calls when additional information is available, and it's supported by rulebooks and/or casebooks under all major sets of rules. More dignity in lost in sticking with an obviously poor call vs. gaining help and getting the call right---even if it means changing a call. The problem is caused not by lack of the official's capability or hustle, but by problems inherent in a 2-man system and from working with unfamiliar partners frequently. We are not professional umpires; we don't have 4 man crews; and we don't work daily with the same partners. We should take necessary steps to get the call correct when there is doubt in our minds that we may have obviously blown a call. When done properly, that action is respected rather than ridiculed.


Just my opinion,

Freix

Head Explodes
 

AAARRRRRGHHHHHH!!!!

(Hey Stevey!)

I agree . . .
 

With most of what you said. Bottom line with me is . . . if I feel I'm out of position or don't have enough "information" to make a call . . . I'll ALWAYS ask my partner if he saw the play. If he can't answer . . . than I'll use my best judgement and make the call.

Maybe you are right. Actually . . . you are right. You were discussing the possibility of incorrect mechanics and I was assuming that the mechanics were correct.

I agree with you. The correct call is the call you ALWAYS seek. Bottom line.

I'm glad we got that settled.

Thanks

Please don't misunderstand my post as being "standard mechanics".

When in doubt and if your partner has the better angle, it's best to get the information before the call. When done, BU merely points at PU and asks, "did he have the base", or "did YOU see a tag."

Changing a call is not an everyday event, is not a standard mechanic, and shouldn't be used as a crutch for good mechanics and solid judgment. Still, if blocked out due to the circumstances of the play, and if your partner likely has the needed information to help make an accurate call, then it's better to get the call right than to live with an obviously blown call.


Just my opinion,

Freix