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When a crew can't reach a call...
What should a crew do when a play happens and there is adamant disagreement between umpires about what should be done?
Example 1: R1, 1 out. Line drive to F4. BU has "no catch", PU comes up with "catch" (:confused:) Runner is in total limbo and doesn't know what to do, F4 throws to first to double off runner. Runner advances safely to second. BU wants a double play because it was the likely outcome had the correct call been made by the calling umpire only, PU is willing to allow the "no catch" and take some $hit for his mess-up, but thinks B/R should be put on first and R1 out. Talk for what is now becoming a long time, who is gonna give way? Example 2: Nobody on, screamer hit at BU's feet in A. He does his best to get a look at it, and decides FOUL. Manager comes and wants help on the play, BU feels he could have kicked it and decides for help. PU says it was inside the line. BU says okay we can go with fair (based on some prior OBR precedent at the MLB level). But BU and PU can't decide on a double or triple... and neither is willing to budge. Example 3: Appeal play for 3rd out for R2 leaving early on a caught fly. R3 scored on the play. BU has OUT on R2, PU says nix the run. BU comes in and says "whoa now, lets talk." Both umpires feel they are 100% right, and won't budge. --- Not interested in answers to the above examples (1 and 2 are HTBT), but how do these disputes get resolved? Obviously when the huddle breaks I'm going to go to war for OUR decision, but when you're in that huddle and you just can't agree, how do you solve it? --- Its easy to say "the crew chief", which is most often simply PU at the amateur level. But alot veteran BU's think they should have the say before a 2nd year plate guy does, and this is where the stalemates come. Anyone been in a situation like this? |
Quick answer:
#1. Base Umpire's call all the way. Go with that. #2. Base Umpire's call all the way. Go with that. #3. Base Umpire's call all the way. Go with that. PU should not poach BU's calls. You go with who's call it was. UIC has nothing to do with judgment calls when he's not asked for input. |
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Steve, as I believe I stated, I wasn't interested in explanations to the examples, I was just providing them so my real question was put in context.
And since is it BU's job to have a time play on a scoring runner? Besides the point, this thread won't get hijacked this thread won't get hijacked this thread won't get hijacked. Could someone take a crack at my real question? |
there are times to ask for help and there are times to go w/ your call. BU is in A, it's his call and his job to call fair/foul. he's got to man-up and eat it if he screws up not throw his partner under the bus. your crew does not need to huddle on every close play...that's how your scenarios can be described. they can be prevented by having a thorough pre-game w/ your partner regarding who's going to make certain calls.
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BU has no business deciding if the run counts or not. each guy has to do his job.
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Philosophical Discussion
Mechanical Jurisdiction
PU has fair/foul, etc. BU has re-touch, etc. Ethical Jurisdiction There is no I in team. The boss is always right. |
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There are words to that effect in OBR -- somewhere in rule 9. |
OK, thanks Bob. Reading it now, 9.04c. And unless the league designates a UIC (like MLB does), the responsibility is PU's. So here is maybe a more focused question:
In amateur ball, how can a PU deal with a "veteran" BU who tries to take control of a decision (not a CALL, but a perhaps a rules/interp/make things right DECISION)? Has anyone had anything like this happen? |
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Now if I were to totally miss making the call at all, as happened once when I was pretty new to umpiring, then fine, the other ump can step right in there. While working in A on a ball that was a close fair/foul over the base, I froze like a deer in the headlights and my partner saw this and immediately called, "Foul." I'm not talking about unsure about a call and not making one, or totally spacing out and not making the call. I'm only talking about calls that I actually call that belong to me. Those are not up for discussion. |
I think SAUmp was heading down the right track. In every situation there is an umpire that has responsiblility to make the call. However, the responsible umpire may not have the best angle or view to make the correct call, for many reasons. It is a crew responsiblility to get the call right, and if after discussion there is still a no agreement, the UIC or crew chief must make the call.
To answer Tuss's question, I have had 'veteran' partners try to poach my calls as the PU, or try to take control of the game. I simply tell them, 'thanks for the help, but let me do my job, you do your's', and that works. I have also had less experienced partners, who have mistakingly made calls that were mine. In this case I leave no doubt in anyones mind who's call it was and what the call will be. |
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________ Buy Glass Bongs |
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Each new individual you work with, can be a new experience and sometimes you have to just go with the flow.
Probably my 4th year officiatiing I had the pleasure of working a Connie Mack game (17-18yr) with the worlds greatest umpire on this earth. He not only let me know this in our pre-game but even the coaches during the plate conference. He had my butt covered but, I had to do the plate because I was the rookie. OK He also implied that at the plate conference and stated that any discussions would be handled by him. Coaches said sure thing. After each of the first two innings he felt it was necessary to come in and comment about my zone and mechanics because, well he was the worlds greatest. (Oh, and by the way did I tell you about the time he attented Jack Dainels Umpiring School in Florida) or (How about the time he got called to do the BIG boys but, had to turn it down because of other commitments). Well, in the third inning there was a runner on second and 1 out. Ball is hit to shortstop and play is at first. I see the runner break for third and yell "I got three." Ball arrives to F5, runner slides and tag is made somewhere clearly above the belt, and I give my best rookie call of the game "SAFE". Well, wouldnt you know the worlds greatest umpire decided he also had opinion about the play (Why not, he had an opinion about everything else.) and echoed a big "OUT". Then he followed it up with, "I got this call and he is out." I looked over to him and at the same time saw the HC coming out from the duggout and figured hey, I am going to let the worlds greatest umpire take care of this, and I did. Of course he had to throw out the HC when he implied that I might be the Rookie but at least I could see better than him. Oh and I also found out that he blew the call at first too but he handled explaining that away too. So now the worlds greaest umpire got things calmed down and was ready to go. "Play", I say in my rookie voice. 2nd pitch and R1 takes off for 2nd base, Here's the pitch and the throw and PLUNK, down goes the worlds greatest umpire. He turned his back on the throw and the rookie had to finish the game by hisself. Things pretty much went smoothly from there but, I will NEVER EVER forget working with the WORLDS GREATEST UMPIRE. (True story) |
I'll say it again a final time...
I'm not talking about the actual poaching on calls. I'm talking about when a crew has to get together to "fix" something that got f'd up, and a decision can't be made. Not the decision on what the actual call was (that goes to the umpire that had the call), but a decision on how to fix something. The need to "fix" something should never happen if everyone is doing their job, but far too often at the amateur level with a new pard' a mechanically sound game is not possible. Nevertheless, Bob shed light on my question, so I'll be done with it since I must not be conveying what I'm actually trying to say. |
When a crew can't reach a call...
TussAgee11,
I understand what you are asking, not the solution for the examples you gave but what to do to straighten out a fubar. First, I agree with what Bob said. None the less, here is my $.02: My order the final decision to "fix" the fubar is: 1) the Crew Chief or UIC if there is one 2) if not, the PU with one caveat. If the PU is a first or second year rookie and the BU has more experience, go with the BU or BU with the most experience in 3 or 4 man crews. If both crew members have the same amount of experience, the PU, it comes with the territory. When the crew makes its decision, the crew member that is know UIC will tell the HCs what the resolution is going to be. |
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Ok, what is a Ryobi chop saw? Does Honig's sell them?
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jicecone,
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I think maybe the reason you're not getting the answer to your question is because you haven't framed it properly. If I understand you correctly, your essential question is: What do you do when the umpire(s) screw up and it creates a "situation" which, by its nature, must be "fixed" - AND the crew can't come to consensus on what the "fix" should be? I believe the answer to your question depends on what the proximate cause of the screw-up was. Usually it's one of four things: 1. Two umpires make different calls on the same play. 2. One umpire "poaches" a call that "should" have been the other umpire's and "errs" in making it. 3. One umpire is 99.9% certain that his partner is making a material misapplication of some aspect of the rules. 4. The umpire responsible for the call does not see what he needed to in order to make the call. How you deal with it depends on which one it is. In #1, that"s what 9.04(c) addresses. Partners get together, try to come to a consensus "best" call/result; if they can't, UIC gets to decide, announce, & explain. (Where I come from it's the plate guy unless previously specified otherwise.) If it's #2, my philosophy is that the "poacher" gets to deal with the mess he made. His partner should be available for a private conversation if the poacher wants to. The partner should avoid recrimination at this point in time, and just give him whatever information and advice he can about how to fix the sitch. But, it's the poachers call, he gets to decide, announce, and explain. Should #3 occur, my philosophy is to, as discreetly as possible, get my partner's attention & have a quick, private conversation and express my concern. I would try to be "convincing", but, ultimately, it's his call. #4 could happen for any of a number of reasons - incompetence, an umpire falls or gets run into or injured, something "weird" happens in the development of the play and he gets screened/blocked out/straight-lined, whatever. In this case, the partner should give as much information as possible and suggest the best fix. But, I believe this one too is ultimately up to the guy whose call it was if the partners can't reach concensus. I'm not suggesting this is the "right" or "only" way to deal with these sitches, it's just how I look at it. JM |
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Tuss you asked what can be done? Well it all depends on the officials. In my case, bonehead decided he was going to take over the game and that was that. whenever you get that personnality on the field, it just doesn't matter what rules, mchanics or protocol has been established, you have to keep doing your job. If I am the veteran, I will assist my partner when he is in trouble and NOT all the time. If requested I will give him rule citations to reinforce the situation and hope that he makes a good decision. However I will not embarrass him, direct him or make his calls for him. There will be times though when the best learning curve is shutting your mouth and letting him learn the hard way. There is NO set pattern below pro-Ball and it depends on the personailty of the team on the field. Rules and mechanics say this and that but sometimes as you know, a little authority goes to some peoples heads and resoning is not possible. You have to have a big ego to be good and competent, and yet still know how to get along with others. Not everyone can handle that evenly. |
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So nobody got the Ryobi chop saw reference, huh? How about a Makita drill or a Bosch router? Milwaukee Sawz-All? Screwdriver? Hammer?
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SDS,
Dawn breaks over marblehead... A "tool". JM |
Oh I get it now!! When you're a hammer, everything looks like a nail. BTW, how do you poach a time play?
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I agree with you on three and a half of four accounts. For the record, I was asking more about your situation 1 and 3, 2 and 4 seem pretty clear cut. As you said, 9.04 covers sit 1 - although determining UIC can sometimes be a bit tricky in amateur ball around here with politics and all, but it should be PU. Sit 3, I just don't know if I could let my partner make a rules mistake that I knew I had right, but I guess if it is a real stalemate, you're right, nothing you can do but let him make it. I think this is what you were hinting at. Thanks for breaking it down. |
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Heck, if by now both manager's haven't figured out to use the phrase, "I protest" when the decision comes from the meeting, then they're partly to blame, too. And, either way, look it up after tha game -- at least one person will learn something. |
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For a while, under OBR, BU taking the second play was standard, but PU could take it under an "advanced" mechanic. Then, PU was standard, and BU was advanced. Then, it switched again. etc. And, under FED, it did belong to BU. Although your association standardized on PU taking the call, other associations didn't -- and some had it one way and some the other. |
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With new umpires, we talk about it, but I still prepare myself to make the call and turn to make the call at third and then I steal a peek to see if the PU is up. Personally, I think either way works, which is why they keep going back and forth and back and forth and why this year PU covering is an advanced mechanic and next year it's the standard mechanics, blah, blah. |
Bob & Rich,
I've heard of the PU taking the 2nd play in the infield with an R1 or R1 & R3 - and a few of the partners I've worked with who have been around awhile like to do it that way - but I've never heard it suggested with an R2 only, like in jicecone's sitch. But, as Bob says, I haven't been doing this very long. JM |
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As already been implied here. This is like putting 3 Baptist in a room to discuss the interpretation of a single bible verse.
You are sure to get 8 opinions. When this game took place I had 4 years experience and this forum didn't exist. Mechanics were something you may or may not of heard about at your local association meeting and this was for HS ball only. Summer ball was based more on your availabilty, then your ability. Probably why both the worlds greatest ump and myself were on the game to begin with. The fact that you knew what the internet was, let alone how to use it was an exception , rather than the norm. And as evidence here, 30 years later, what the mechanic really is, is ..............................? So please stop. The point was the difficulty of a "crew reaching a call" when the personialities are not condusive to achieving the correct expected outcome. And we wonder why some of these threads become 7 pages long. |
Respectfully I disagree,
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Umpire mechanics have been developed over decades by professionals that are well trained and take into consideration all type of issues when developing umpire processes. Even the NFHS with their outdated mechanics had a basic philosophy (hard to change) of why they had their specific system of umpiring. In a conversation with Evans he basically wanted to know WHY umpires working games played by non-professional players INSIST on changing systems (processes) to suit themselves. People that developed the systems know that umpire crews of 2 and 3 umpires are based on compromise. In this instance Evans would tell you the PU should stay home and allow the BU to handle the simplicity of a maximum of two base runners whereas the PU can stay home and not be compromised by an errant throw at third and be in race-to-the-plate with the advancing runner. We will just have to agree to disagree on this one. And I will post about anything that I select to be involved in . . . if you don't like it don't read the thread. |
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R2, grounder to the left side, R2 holds until F6 throws to first, then runs. Play at first, second play back at third. This is the pretty standard "depends on where you are and who you're working with" that determines whether the BU bounces back to third or the PU is up there to make the second call. |
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Smitty will make both calls on the run and miss one and be horribly out of position on the other. I'd rather let Smitty stay with the call at first and be waiting in the cutout for the play at third. I don't have the 2-man (red book) handy, but I believe the PU taking this second play *is* the advanced mechanic (or the standard mechanic) depending on the year. |
I think Evans says that the BU takes both ends of this play. That being said, pregame about how you're going to cover the play...IMO if the play is covered, then that's your mechanic on the play. If you can agree on how to cover the play, then default to the mechanic that's trained by the professionals who do the two man system.
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Color me cynical, but I'm not holding my breath for anything better in your next 5 posts. |
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Tim should be able to address you with knowledge of just who you are. Taking several shots like that with code name anonymity is sheer cowardice. Agree or disagree with the man (which I often have), but don't be such a coward. |
As long as nothing gets deleted, this is going to get interesting.....
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Fair's fair. Tim's totally out front with who and where he is. This guy wants to pop off with his cheap shots, he can come out with who he is, or he can keep his cheap shots to himself.
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The Evans manual does clearly state that with a runner at second base only, the BU has all plays at all bases except home, and the PU has touch of third, obstruction at third and coach assist call responsibilities, as well as any resultant plays at the plate due to an overthrow at third. It's the same way we were taught.
Why would we complicate things? |
While the Evans manual is the most comprehensive 2 man mechanic book out there right now, the system has been based off pro ball.
I'm not saying I disagree with what it says on this play, but at other levels in different areas, I'm not going to make a blanket statement that "just because the Evans manual says so means it must be done this way all the time". I'm sure I could find some situation at a crappy 13 year old game that an Evans mechanic may not be the best idea. Similarly, some mechanic used by an association at a 13 year old game wouldn't have a place in a pro game. So, when in rome... |
If you have a better idea than Jim Evans on how to cover the play, then use that. I will use Evans' method because I don't have a better idea.
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This has been the mechanic for a lot longer than Evans has had a school. It has been taught for at least as long as I've been umpiring, which is 24 years.
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Yeah, I guess I don't care whose idea it is...but if Evans adopted it from whomever and teaches it in his academy...it's good enough for me.
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I'll just continue to do what I'm taught, whatever that turns out to be. |
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I said that my comments were not directed at this mechanic, because I agree with BU taking both. However, if I wanted to play devil's advocate with you (cause its so much fun), I would answer the following: "What happens with R1, basehit, RF overthrows the play at 3rd? The same exact thing. In the R2 sitch discussed previously, no runner is going to be disregarded as you suggested. 2 umpires, 2 runners. PU comes to the cutout for play at 3rd, then retreats to home in fair territory after the overthrow. BU takes any play on B/R." Again, never ever in this thread did I say I agreed with PU coming up on this play. All I said was that was what was taught here until this past year, and that just because its in the Evans manual does not make it be all end all as you suggested. In fact, I believe there are a few cases where the Evans book deviates from what is taught at PBUC, but I could be wrong. Hope to find out soon enough. |
All the books say the baseguy has both plays. That is is how I was taught and thats is how I work. Sometimes if I notice my baseguy is older and cannot move very well I will ask him in the pregame if he wants me to cover 3rd. Most of the time they say NO.. I got it. No big deal.
Look, I have been on these boards for a long time.... under my real name. I decided to take on an alias due to the level of ball I work. Most upper level umps do not post on boards...atleast not using their real names. I would say that 85% of posters use an alias. As far as Tim C, most of the time Tim comes off brash and arrogant. He puts down people at times. So I called him out alittle...big deal. He even PMed me and wanted to know the names of the people in his HS group that think he's an a$$. He need to relax a little, IMO |
If that's the truth, then I take back that coward thing. I thought you were an interloper doing a hit-and-run and I thought it was horse----.
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Can't have it both ways, IMO. |
Why would you post using an alias unless you intended only to flame someone? And I still think its a horsepucky thing to do, regardless of your reasoning.
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for #2, take a page from Football's instant replay. Runner going down sideline, official whistles that he's out of bounds at the 50, turns out he wasn't. What happens? Ball's dead at the 50, once the whistle killed the play, it's not reviewable, since no matter the outcome, the ball would be dead at the 50. Same in baseball, once it's called foul, the ball's dead. Play's over, tell the coach to move on and if he won't, tell him he won't be around for the next blown call.
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Ok I am "late to the party but here goes" We have a no-catch on the field. (You said the PU conceded the no-ctach call) ok how do we 'fix" You cannot ASSUME a DP even though it might be the likely outcome. No matter what happens from here this crew is going to take some heat. Since we had a no catch R1 stays at second base and the BR is out or put R1 back at first and declare the BR out. In any event IMO, since we have a MAJOR screw-up on part of this umpiring crew I would NOT record 2 outs. take some heat and move on. You cannot have a long talk and delay the game. One of the umpires needs to concede to his partner. If you have one partner who is "bullheaded" rather then have a long drawn out conversation on the field, let this "bullhead" have his say BUT on the same token when the manager comes out to question this simply say 'skip you can talk to him" that's NOT throwing your partner under the bus but, since you deferred the FINAL say to him it is HIS responsibility to now explain it WITHOUT my help. The time for discussing issues arguing etc. is for POST game away from everybody. Quote:
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FWIW if you have situations like the one you describe you better get a new partner or the game will become UGLY in a heartbeat. Pete Booth |
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About the same time Cali gets a decent college team.
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What's wrong with Cal? And hey, just because the Trojans can't get excited to play crappy Pac 10 teams.....:rolleyes:
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Cal 3 YouTube - Mighty Oregon (sing along with chant) |
Holy Cow!! ( Is that swearing?)
What is happening to my teams???? They fold like houses of cards under pressure. Go Figure!! And btw, I said SAUmp was HEADING down the right track, I didn't say he was THERE!!! |
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And I already know the words. :cool: |
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