LL Rules -vs- FED rules

[Roger Greene]

Thank you for the comments on my personality, Mr. Striker.

I've observed the general competence of volunteer umpire corps vs trained umpires. I'll take the trained s a group anytime. (There are competent volunteers and there are incompetent trained, Ill grant. I'm speeking of the quality as a whole. The imcompetent trained generally don't last). A good number of the trained at time work as volunteers for events/orginizations).

Just don't use the lack of government participitation for an excuse. Any orginization/community can have what they wish. It just takes participation.

Roger Greene

ps: I amy paid for my construction work/tractor work. I just chose, like many others, to do something for the community, when possible, instead of expecting to government to supply all.

[mick]

Originally posted by Roger Greene
A good number of the trained at time work as volunteers for events/orginizations).

Roger,
Some of us who get paid for umping in this area, also work for LL as volunteers.
Little League pays $65.00/game (2-man) for big diamond games, but a few of us do it for free, or not at all.
mick

[Striker991]

Mr. Greene:

I still take exception to your use of "trained" vs "volunteer". Paid does not equal trained. Little League, through district, state, and regional programs provides a great deal of training for their umpires. In addition, local volunteer associations, like the one mentioned above, provide a great deal of training, and insist their umpires are trained before being sent out.

I apologize for sounding demeaning. It gets to be irritating when I hear this concept. And, it still sounds like you think that volunteer umpires are not "trained." I would make a wager with you, that for every incompetent volunteer umpire you point out, I can point out an equal number of incompetent paid ones. But where does this get us? Nowhere. It seems to be the best for all, is, rather than drawing this line, is to promote competent umpiring everywhere. Be an example. Be of assistance. Help with training. Maybe your association could run an annual clinic for all the volunteer umpires in your area? If you brought the level of the volunteer umpire up, you wouldn't have to have a bake sale to hire an umpire.

[mick]

Originally posted by Striker991
I still take exception to your use of "trained" vs "volunteer".

Striker991,
Roger Greene was speaking very generally and his comments included a description of me.
However, I do not take that personally, because the shoe just doesn't fit.
It probably doesn't fit too many folks on this forum.
There is nothing wrong with being paid.
There is nothing wrong with working for free.
What matters is that we try to be the best.

Merely trying to be as good as the best, puts us behind the best, because that guy is always improving.
mick

[Rich Ives]

Roger - here's a couple of happenings in a recent game with a trained, paid umipre.

I got the benefit so don't try that road.

Bases loaded, no out, batter hits a weak humpback toward F6. My F6 charges hard and tries a desparate shoestring catch but short-hops it. Ump calls IF. "Enemy" R2 had started to advance. We threw to 2B. Ump calls "out" when the base is tagged - runner was NOT tagged.

"Enemy" runner trapped between 2B and 3B. My F4 throws ball out of play. Ump awards runner 3B, saying it's 1+1, runner was headed to 2B so he gets 2B + 3B.

Of course there was also the time a few years back when another "trained" paid umpire called a batted ball that hit third base foul, the apologized by saying "OOPS! I was thinking iof the High School rule."


Trained and Paid are NOT synonyms. Paid does not = competent. Volunteer does not - incompetent.

[brandda]

Originally posted by Rich Ives
Trained and Paid are NOT synonyms. Paid does not = competent. Volunteer does not - incompetent.

Thanks Rich. That's the only point I was trying to make.

[GarthB]

Rich says: "LL doesn't claim they are superior umpires."

Oh, but they do..by their actions.

Would LL perform in an manner they believed to be inferior? Of course not. They perform in a manner which they believe to be the best, or superior.

[Roger Greene]

Originally posted by Rich Ives
Trained and Paid are NOT synonyms. Paid does not = competent. Volunteer does not - incompetent.

I never said that the reverse of that statement was true.

In my original post I commented on the remark indicating that an orginization could not pay umpires unless tax dollars were involved. That post was followed with an attack on my character.

In my second post I made an observation of my expierence watching and coaching games called by volenteer parents and fans. It was a very general statement, and contained the exclusion you stated above.

Like most things in life, in officiating at athletic contests you end up getting what you pay for. It can be paid for by the time and efforts of a very committed group of volunteers(not just on game days), or it can be paid for by employing competently trained officials. In my expierence the former is rare. Your expierence may differ.

Roger Greene

[Rich Ives]

Garth,

No, they don't.

What they do want is for the umpires to be volunteers just like everyone else.

Why do you think umpires are so special that they should be paid, while all the players, coaches, league boards, DA's, concession workers, parents, etc. volunteer their time and money?

[Tim C]

I live in an area where literally NO volunteer LL umpires EVER become part of our Federation, College or Summer Umpire Group.

I live in an area where NO SUMMER baseball is supported by tax dollars, in fact, players and coaches "pay-to-play".

I have over the years "tried" to watch poorly trained, out of uniform and uneducated (to the rules and game managment) umpires work games.

I poersonally detest Little League (organized National Group) and what it has done to the game.

Paid umpires are held to a higher standard than volunteers. You would not see, in my area, a paid umpire show up with gear on the outside and his hat turned backwards.

At the volunteer level we often see just the things listed above.

In my opinion people who umpire for free (call them volunteers if you want) are not umpires. They are volunteers helping keep order at a game.

There is nothing wrong with the PEOPLE that work these games, there is a problem with LL for making demands that people volunteer.

Two points to close:

(1) All playoff games in the three largest LL groups in our area are umpired by PAID members of the local FED association.

I conclude that this means that the officials of the local LL "think" there must be a difference between volunteers and umpires.

(2) My statement that for years I have "tried" to watch people umpire . . . it includes volunteers and paid umpires alike.

Rich, you ask what makes umpires different:

1) Expense of GEAR. Coaches don't have that personal expense, LL moms don't HAVE to buy their child the newest Z3000 Titanium Bat, and uniforms don't have to include SEVEN different changes for tournament play.

2) Training. In my area coaches teach with what they have learned over the years (that includes teachng "the hands are part of the bat." Testing, training classes and a committment to learn things they do not know.

3) Impartiality. MOST volunteer umpires in our area are connected in some way to teams. players or coaches. Like the legal system, this is an incestual relationship. This allows coaches to impart pressure on volunteers that just doesn't happen with paid professional (I have to watch that term - I think that umpires that work non-professional games can be called professional -- but just by a small amount).

Tee

[Edited by Tim C on Jul 19th, 2002 at 04:54 PM]

[Rich Ives]

1) Expense of GEAR. Coaches don't have that personal expense, LL moms don't HAVE to buy their child the newest Z3000 Titanium Bat, and uniforms don't have to include SEVEN different changes for tournament play.

POINT BY POINT:

EVERY coach I know pulls money out of his own pocket every year, for litte extras, additional gear, post game drinks, mileage on the car etc.

Most leagues around here provide basic umpire gear. LL umpires don't have to buy the latest whiz bang West Vest, or whatever is the "cool" umpire thing to have this year any more than Mom needs to buy Jr. the latest bat.

Kids Moms know how to wash their uniforms, and do. That's why they only need one. They also know how to play in a dirty uniform if there are multiple games in one day. Maybe you should learn so you don't need seven sets of stuff.


2) Training. In my area coaches teach with what they have learned over the years (that includes teachng "the hands are part of the bat." Testing, training classes and a committment to learn things they do not know.


Oh gee, no coach ever went to a clinic? No coach ever loaded up on training videos? Umpires don''t go to coaching clinics. Coaches don't go to rules clinics.


3) Impartiality. MOST volunteer umpires in our area are connected in some way to teams. players or coaches. Like the legal system, this is an incestual relationship. This allows coaches to impart pressure on volunteers that just doesn't happen with paid professional (I have to watch that term - I think that umpires that work non-professional games can be called professional -- but just by a small amount).


So basically, volunteer umpires ar untrustworthy cheats? Pure unadulterated BS.

[GarthB]

Let's be logical.

Given a choice between two alternatives does one pick what one considers inferior? No. We all act in our own best interests.

LL has a choice. They choose to go with a volunteer umpiring system. (BTW, if you will review my initial post, I refered to a superior system, not superior umpires.)

Now, follow me if you can, this is very simple:

LL has a choice, yes or no? Yes.

LL chooses a volunteer system, yes or no? Yes.

LL would choose a system the find inferior, yes or no? No

Ergo, LL, by its actions (choice) has determined that, for them, in their opinion, a volunteer umpiring system is superior.

To deny that is simply an act of obstinance. Not even LL would deny that they make choices that they feel are the best for them. That is all I ever said. If it makes you feel uncomfortable, I'm sorry.

[aceholleran]

A classic debate. IMHO, I see much better results with "paid" umps in LL. Doing Fed, Legion, Babe Ruth games, etc. makes for a more varied experience.

I ump in an urban area. It's hard to get coaches to volunteer, much less umps. I also have assigned. Over the years, slowly but surely, I have stopped assigning "non-patch" umps and bringing in new blood. Patch umps are tested, they go to regular clinics. I have never met an umpire who does solely LL who is worth a damp red flag.

We all know that 99% of what happens on a LL field can be covered under MLB rules. A good patch ump can read (and digest) LL 7.13 during a nice sojourn on the toity.

I have umped with too many "volunteers" who show up with pins on their hats, JCPenny loafers, iron burns on their shirts (all true). They use a magnifying glass to spot jewelry. They give 15-minute pregames warning any and all about every infraction possible. They call batters out of the box and measure the tape on bats. The proper batter is always Frank. The plate is exactly 17 inches wide for these guys. If they were cops, they'd write reams of tickets for people who drove 56 mph.

Ask them to suck it up and learn to call a pitch a ball when the catcher digs it out of the dirt--no matter where it crosses the batter. Or how to NOT allow 18 warmup pitches between innings--and won't start the next one until little Justin, the first-base coach, is in his box.

You "vols" out there, I maintain: Get your patch; don't just ump LL; see a real slider; learn 90-foot mechanics; get an inside chest prtotector and a fitted hat. Put your indicator in the left hand and don't say, "High, ball one." Then come back and do LL for free. I do.

Ace

[Tim C]

Your answers to my post don't even make sense.

Slow down and try to use logic.

[Striker991]

Ace:
This is an opinion and an attitude I can respect, from someone who is "putting their money where their mouth is." Clearly you are someone who is not only doing their best to be the best, but in your assistance and consulting with volunteer umpires to help them to be their best you are also improving your community and the game. You see what is wrong and try to fix it, rather than just degrade and downplay those that aren't at the same level. If I were in your district, I would be contacting you immediately for assistance in finding the best umpiring training available in my area. BTW, if you have more information in District 4 (SW Washington), let me know. I have received information from Tim C (thanks!) for the Portland, Oregon metro area, and am working with Northwest Umpires Association, Evergreen Baseball Umpires Association, and District 4 LL to develop my skills. I totally agree with your post and will encourage all the people I work with to better themselves as umpires in this fashion.

Thanks again, for the support and the kick in the pants to get going!

Greg Owens
[email protected]