Catch/Appeal
 

R1. R1 is off with the pitch. Ball is hit into the gap. F8 makes a great catch. R1, who is in between 2nd and 3rd starts to retreat. He re-touches 2nd. However, F8 rockets a wild throw back into the infield which goes into the dugout. At the time the ball enters DBT, R1 is in between 1st and 2nd (on his way back to 1st).

Since the ball is dead, has R1 lost his chance to tag-up; therefore, can be out on appeal?

So you have, R1 awarded two bases but subject to be called out on appeal?

Thanks for your help.

tjones1,

In the sitch you describe, the R1 is NOT subject to an appeal under ANY rule code - as long as he proceeds to and touches 1B prior to (again) touching 2B.

If, on the other hand, had the R1 had still been between 2B & 3B at the time the throw went out of play, under FED rules he would NOT be able to "complete" his retouch of 1B, while under OBR rules he would.

JM

are you sure coach JM? wouldn't 3B be his next base? This part of appeals is confusing to me between the rule sets

So lets say that in a FED game R1 is between 2B and 3B at the ToT....

1. I doubt the defense or their coaches would figure it out that he can be subject to an appeal at 1B. (Very few coaches around here would know this)

2. What if R1 tries to go back to retouch 1B? As BU, do you simply ignore him or verbally state that he can't retouch?

These rules have always been confusing because they vary from code to code. Since you may go a year or more of umpiring without seeing it, it is hard to remember, as well. I actually cannot remember the last time I saw this type of play-maybe 6 or 7 years ago?

I have always thought it to be a very strange thing to see a guy going backwards to touch a base when time has been called and he has been awarded bases. It just looks weird.

Catch/Appeal
 

The ball remains in play until the ball enters DBT. The TOT is only used for a reference point for base awards. If R1 was between 2B and 3B at TOT, R1 could still retouch 2B and 1B. R1 would only lose his right to retouch 2B and 1B if he didn't move until the ball entered DBT. If R1 was between 2B and 1B when the ball entered DBT, after retouching 1B, R1 would only get 3B.

correct, but I think JM is saying that if he touches 2b, he can't return to retouch 1b...my contention is that the base that he couldn't touch would be 3b to unable him to legally retouch 1b. I'm not saying he's wrong...but I think the OBR interp is what I said in this post...the fed post wouldn't really make sense but it is FED I guess.

In FED if you are on or beyond the next base from the one you started from at the time the ball went into DBT you cannot return to retouch the original base, the defense can make a dead ball appeal, and you're screwed. Why? Who knows? No one else does it that way.

In OBR if you touch the next base from your current position after the time the ball went into DBT you cannot return to touch your original base.

In OBR if the runner is awarded two bases from his position at the time of the throw - subject to revision upon a retouch. So if a runner is between 2B and 3B, but has to retouch 1B, you award him home - then change it to 3B IF he goes back to retouch 1B. The rationale is to not do something that would alert the defense to the appeal possibility. If he doesn't go back and retouch he is subject to appeal. If the appeal is made he is out. If no appeal is made he scores.

JM has the correct answer.

In FED, a runner cannot legally retouch if he is on of byond his "advance base" WHEN the ball becomes dead. (And, yes, somewhere in the rules, there's an exception to prevent a smart F9 from intentionally throwing the ball out of play to "trap" R1 who has advanced to far.)

In OBR, a runner cannot legally retouch if he continues to advance to the next base AFTER the ball becomes dead.

So, in zm1283's play (R1 between second and third when the ball goes dead, but returns to first): In FED, let him run, but call him out on appeal if the defense appeals his failure to tag up at first. IF the defense doesn't appeal, leave him at third.

In OBR, the retouch is legal, so any appeal at first would be denied. The runner is awarded third. (MLBUM has it as something like, the runner is first awarded home, then the award is changed to third if R1 retoouches first.)

makes sense fellas...thank you...hope I never see it.

But what do you do when he tries to return to 1B to retouch when he's not allowed to?

Also, wouldn't he be awarded home if he's between 2B and 3B when the ball is released from F8? So do you tell him he can't retouch first, and award him home and let the defense figure it out from there?

Good question. Is it that he would be called out if he tried to go retouch first or, it makes no difference? It is a strange rule.

2 bases from his last legally occupied base. 1B is the last base legally occupied since he has a retouch obligation at 1B on a caught fly ball.

How does he have a retouch obligation if he isn't allowed to retouch the base in the first place?

Have I mentioned that I HATE FED rules?

Great explanation, Rich! I like the way you worded the difference between FED & OBR. If you don't mind, I would like to use this explanation in our next rules clinic for recruits.

No problem.

Hope you're serving cheese at the meeting ;-)

In both FED and OBR it's initially two bases from where you are positioned at the time of the throw. It's only after the re-touch (if made) that you adjust the award.

Watch him do it.

Not in FED, no. Just award third and let the rest play itself out.

So if he retouches, it's up to the defense to figure out that he can't retouch and then appeal?

Why do you only award third? FED rule/casebook reference?

FED rule is 8-3-5.

Can't Run the Bases Backwards?
 

Umpire communication question: Do you "coach" an appeal out of the defense?

For example, players near the base do know a rule has been violated and complain about the runner's action to the umpire, although team members remain unaware of the "procedural" requirement for a proper appeal to be made with the "live" ball in hand.

A) Do you tell the defense you will not acknowledge an improper appeal, thus tipping the hat to the defense to follow up and make a proper appeal with the ball in hand that you will correctly acknowledge.

OR

B) Do you remain quiet and not acknowledge the initial complaint, leaving the defense with the impression you're calling him safe when in fact you're making no call on the "valid" complaint made w/out the ball in hand.

I'd say ignore if not spoken to directly, and if spoken to directly, find a way to answer vaguely.

"So?" "Okay..." seem like appropriate responses, ONLY WHEN SPOKEN TO DIRECTLY.

Once you get past that initial response, I'm sure coach will yell at his players to execute the appeal legally.

Totally unrelated to situation here since you are asking about a live ball appeal. However, if asked by players I will reserve comment and turn and look into the dugout at the head coach. If he is savvy he will either instruct players or call time to come out and discuss. If he asks the right questions during dead ball discussion he will get the right answers. If he does not I will not lead him to do so.

My answer is generally some variation on "I can't rule on that until you make a proper appeal." I give that answer whether or not the baserunner erred.

Two exceptions:

Number 1) IF there are no runners still on base, I might just say that the runner touched the base (assuming he did so, of course). It avoids delaying the game for what will by definition be an unsuccessful appeal, and the offense can't gain from the defense throwing the ball away during an attempt at an appeal.

Number b) In FED ball, in a blow out game, or with no runners on base, I might just say, "Time -- coach, what are you trying to do?" and then rule on the appeal.

The initial throw is an appeal.
 

Since the initial attempt to retire the runner at first after the catch is an appeal and the fielder erred (ie threw the ball into dead ball territory) no further appeal is allowed on the runner at first base in the OP. I think this is the case in all three codes; if not, have at it.

Different appeal. The first is a "leaving early" appeal and the second is a failure to retouch required bases on an award appeal. If that wouldn't be upheld, there would never be a reason to retouch on a ball thrown into DBT.

Two things:

1) An "err" on a continuous action appeal doesn't negate the right to further appeals after the ball again becomes live. An "err" on a "relaxed action" appeal does negate that right.

2) In FED, the defense can continue to appeal eve if they throw the ball out of play on the first (relaxed action) appeal.

Why
 

What is the reference for that (ie relaxed vs. not relaxed).

What is the difference between a retouch and a "leaving early." We aren't including 2nd base in any of this, yes? If so, leave it out. I am only concerned with the retouch of first.

I think relaxed vs not relaxed is J/R terminology.

The difference between retouch and "leaving early" is I think two different terms. Retouch = "Tag up" and Leaving Early is leaving early...the point of this thread is that even if the ball is thrown out of play or into DBT (dead ball territory) on a caught fly ball, even though there is a base award the runner is still obiligated to "tag up" prior to his base award and if he advances to and touches 3B if he started on 1B, he loses the right to retouch 1B and may be called out on appeal. (that's my understanding anyway.) for OBR rules.

Yes it is Jaksa/Roder, but that is not the way I understand the context. One does not need to retouch (absent a foul ball) unless the ball is caught and the runner has left early.

Yes I understand that he is obligated to retouch first on the award, but he has to retouch because he left early, that is why the defense is appealing in the first place.

I agree with your post tcarilli.

It's in many of the reference material. Here's one:

PBUC 2009 Updates, 3.4J (it's essentially the same play as being discussed here, ecxcept F5 throws the ball out of play attempting to "double up" R1); Doesn't the act of the third baseman throwing the ball out of play nullify a succeeding appeal attempt? That is, hasn't the defense erred on its first attempt to appeal? rULING: nO. thE WILD THROW BY THE THIRD BASEMAN IS PART OF THE CONTINUOUS ACTION CREATED BY THE BATTER HITTING THE BALL ABD DOES NBOT NULLIFY A SUBSEQUENT APPEAL AFTER THE CONTINUOUS ACTION HAS ENDED.

(Apolgies for the caps)

I see this all the time in LL. I just say, "The ball is dead." With arms folded.

Thanks Bob.

I would not say that, as it might suggest to the ignorati that the defense cannot appeal.

If asked whether they should appeal, I usually reply: "I can't answer that question." If asked whether they can appeal, I usually reply: "You can always appeal."