Is this a balk?

dcasimir · #1 (**permalink**) Tue Jul 16, 2002, 08:08am

No men on base. No count on the batter. Pitcher begins his windup.Just about to release pitch when his coach yells, "time!" Pitcher does not throw the pitch. What is the call? Is it a balk and the batter now has a count of "ball one?"

Rich Ives · #2 (**permalink**) Tue Jul 16, 2002, 09:08am

You can only balk if there are men on base.

Bfair · #3 (**permalink**) Tue Jul 16, 2002, 09:24am

Quote:

Originally posted by dcasimir
No men on base. No count on the batter. Pitcher begins his windup.Just about to release pitch when his coach yells, "time!" Pitcher does not throw the pitch. What is the call? Is it a balk and the batter now has a count of "ball one?"

It cannot be balk without baserunners under all rules.
In OBR, it's nothing with no runners.
Without runners in Fed, it's an illegal pitch, although I've never seen one called for a ball not delivered with nobody on. Umpires I know and have seen enforce as per the OBR rule---it's nothing.

The pitcher has reacted to the defense, not the offense, in stopping his pitch. While the book addresses the issue if the stoppage is caused by the offense, it states nothing regarding the defense.

In most amateur games, CSFP says that if no advantage was gained (a runner was not breaking on the pitch), call time and ignore the happening except to warn that the next time it may be balked. He needs to continue to pitch.

If the runner was breaking on the pitch, enforce the balk.
The action stopped the opportunity of the runner to steal.

Just my opinion,

Freix

Gold_Spark · #4 (**permalink**) Tue Jul 23, 2002, 02:59pm

If the umpire doesn't grant the pitcher time, he has a certain amount of time before he is required to pitch the ball. In FED rules it is 20 seconds after he has received the ball, I do believe. After those 20 seconds has expired without a pitch . . . the batter is rewarded a ball.

Jim Porter · #5 (**permalink**) Tue Jul 23, 2002, 03:10pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Gold_Spark
If the umpire doesn't grant the pitcher time, he has a certain amount of time before he is required to pitch the ball. In FED rules it is 20 seconds after he has received the ball, I do believe. After those 20 seconds has expired without a pitch . . . the batter is rewarded a ball.

If you're an OBR umpire, do yourself a huge favor and forget the 20-second rule even exists.

Jim Porter · #6 (**permalink**) Tue Jul 23, 2002, 03:17pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Bfair
In most amateur games, CSFP says that if no advantage was gained (a runner was not breaking on the pitch), call time and ignore the happening except to warn that the next time it may be balked. He needs to continue to pitch.

Just my opinion,

Freix

I totally disagree with that opinion. If a pitcher stops his delivery with runners on base, and it wasn't caused by the offense, that's a balk, and it always should be a balk. It matters not a wit if a runner was breaking or standing on the base picking his nose, or whether the players are wearing diapers or shaving, or whether his coach yelled, "Time," or "Fire!" (Of course, in Little League Majors and below, it would an illegal pitch by rule)

It's not a CSFP advantage/disadvantage situation. It is as elementary as baseball rules get. Balk!

brandda · #7 (**permalink**) Tue Jul 23, 2002, 04:03pm

In LL it's an illegal pitch and ball one. We had some kids figure this out and do this 4 times to intentionally walk batters when the situation called for it. It looked goofy but was legal.

PeteBooth · #8 (**permalink**) Tue Jul 23, 2002, 07:33pm

Originally posted by Gold_Spark [/i]

If the umpire doesn't grant the pitcher time, he has a certain amount of time before he is required to pitch the ball. In FED rules it is 20 seconds after he has received the ball, I do believe. After those 20 seconds has expired without a pitch . . . the batter is rewarded a ball.

This kind of rule falls under the category of Nit-Pick'n and I agree with Jim P on this issue whether you do an OBR / NCAA or FED game. Basically forget this rule UNLESS:

F1 is being a real wise a** or F1 is taking an extraordinary amount of time during each pitch in which the game starts to drag on.

Normally we give F1 a warning on this and most F1's oblige.

Pete Booth

Jim Porter · #9 (**permalink**) Tue Jul 23, 2002, 08:30pm

Quote:

Originally posted by brandda
In LL it's an illegal pitch and ball one. We had some kids figure this out and do this 4 times to intentionally walk batters when the situation called for it. It looked goofy but was legal.

Actually, Williamsport has issued a ruling on that and what you described is not legal. If I remember correctly, you call the first one, warn on the second one, and eject on the third one. You never get to a fourth one.

Gold_Spark · #10 (**permalink**) Tue Jul 23, 2002, 08:52pm

PeteBooth: I don't know how to disagree with you more. I'm a firm believer that every rule should be enforced. And if you are a NFHS Licensed Umpire, I think you should follow their example:

"Umpires have the responsibility to enforce the rules in a consistent manner. Umpires are not authorized to create new rules on the field, nor are they authorized to choose which rules they will or will not enforce. An umpire's personal opinion about the value of a rule is not to have an effect on the enforcement of the rule."

Furthermore, the sole point of my post was the fact that until the Umpire grants "Time", the ball is still live. The umpire could have refused to grant time and urged the pitcher to immediately return to the mound to deliver a pitch. THEN . . . we fall into your situation. If the pitcher then "dilly-dallies" around and doesn't do as asked, the umpire could enforce the 20 second rule.

But fellas . . . if we are playing under a certain set of rules. We just can't leave SOME of them out. Come on.

Jim Porter · #11 (**permalink**) Tue Jul 23, 2002, 08:55pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Gold_Spark
But fellas . . . if we are playing under a certain set of rules. We just can't leave SOME of them out. Come on.

I don't work FED ball. There's no such thing here.

However, as a long-time OBR umpire, I can tell you that if you try to enforce everything, you'll be one miserable SOB and not many people will like you. That's a fact.

Gold_Spark · #12 (**permalink**) Tue Jul 23, 2002, 09:15pm

Just seems contradicting to me. I mean, if you're not going to enforce one rule why not forget about this one too? I just don't like the idea. UNLESS . . . you write out a list of exceptions that say we will not follow these rules pertaining to blah blah blah. That's the only escape I see. But above that . . . I think you should try to enforce EVERY rule. Sorry

brandda · #13 (**permalink**) Tue Jul 23, 2002, 09:22pm

Jim - Do you have a reference for that Williamsport ruling? I can't find anything in the rulebook to suggest that this is illegal.

PeteBooth · #14 (**permalink**) Tue Jul 23, 2002, 09:25pm

Originally posted by Gold_Spark

PeteBooth: I don't know how to disagree with you more. I'm a firm believer that every rule should be enforced. And if you are a NFHS Licensed Umpire, I think you should follow their example:

All I can say is in my 13 yrs. of umpiring which includes LL (where I started), HS (Varsity level), Legion, Connie Mack, Mickey Mantle, Sandy Kofax, various mens leagues and a collegiate wood bat league I have NEVER enforced this rule and I personally don't know of any umpire who has.

We need to know the history of rules when we are enforcing. The reason the 20 second rule exists is so that the game does not drag on needlessly. Normally all it takes is a warning to F1 and that will do the trick.

If you start calling that kind of rule get ready for a rough game.

Look at the uniform rules. Suppose a team only has 9 players and one of their players does not have the correct hat as his other teammates. Are you not going to allow this player to particpate? First off the AD would probably run you out of town if you didn't.

I am a Licensed NFHS official in the state of NY and if you call that one in NY get ready for a steady diet of modified games and your schedule will all of a sudden get reduced. As mentioned if F1 wants to be a wise a** and do a Mark Fiderich (The Bird) or an Al Robosky (The Mad Hungarian), immitation on every single pitch that's different, but to date that's one rule I have not enforced.

Do not make your life difficult.

Pete Booth

Gold_Spark · #15 (**permalink**) Tue Jul 23, 2002, 09:34pm

All that I can say . . . is that I disagree. And again I'll say that the POINT of my post was to spread light on the fact that TIME isn't granted unless the umpire grants it.

You said this: "We need to know the history of rules when we are enforcing. The reason the 20 second rule exists is so that the game does not drag on needlessly. Normally all it takes is a warning to F1 and that will do the trick."

I said this: "The umpire could have refused to grant time and urged the pitcher to immediately return to the mound to deliver a pitch. THEN . . . we fall into your situation. If the pitcher then "dilly-dallies" around and doesn't do as asked, the umpire could enforce the 20 second rule."

No. I don't expect any umpire to time each and every pitch so to enforce the 20 second rule. And I agree that every rule has it's purpose. Overkill isn't good. Just like a football official could call holding on every play. I understand your logic.

Then again, you just can't FORGET the rule exists. You have to enforce the rule if need be. In my explanation, I believe the enforcement would be needed. That's all.