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asaron Fri Jul 17, 2009 02:39pm

left foot
 
Can a right handed pitcher put his left foot in rubber as to get an advantage to a pickoff at second base?

SanDiegoSteve Fri Jul 17, 2009 02:43pm

More info please. Put his foot in rubber? I can't see how that would help.:)


Provide a little more background detail.

GA Umpire Fri Jul 17, 2009 02:43pm

Not sure I follow.

Are you asking if F1 can come set with his free foot on top of the rubber?

asaron Fri Jul 17, 2009 02:48pm

Yes

jdmara Fri Jul 17, 2009 02:51pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by asaron (Post 615258)
Yes

This position would be considered a windup. Are you playing by FED or OBR?

-Josh

bob jenkins Fri Jul 17, 2009 02:53pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by asaron (Post 615252)
Can a right handed pitcher put his left foot in rubber as to get an advantage to a pickoff at second base?

A RH pitcher taking the mound with his feet in the position of a LH pitcher (left foot on rubber, right foot in front of the rubber toward home) is illegal and a balk specifically in FED.

I'd rule the same way in OBR.

GA Umpire Fri Jul 17, 2009 02:57pm

Quote:

8.01
(b) The Set Position. Set Position shall be indicated by the pitcher when he stands facing the batter with his pivot foot in contact with, and his other foot in front of, the pitcher’s plate, holding the ball in both hands in front of his body and coming to a complete stop.
It has to be in front of the plate. Not on top. However, this is a "Don't do that" issue from what I can tell.

Why would a pitcher want to do this any way?

asaron Fri Jul 17, 2009 02:57pm

left foot
 
One3 of my umpire feiends had a game and for some reason this is the position the pitcher took when there was a runner on second base. Right hand pitcher, mounted the rubber with his left foot int the hole in front of the rubber,his right foot about 15 inches towards second and attempted a pick off at second. he called a balk. was he right??

GA Umpire Fri Jul 17, 2009 03:00pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by bob jenkins (Post 615261)
A RH pitcher taking the mound with his feet in the position of a LH pitcher (left foot on rubber, right foot in front of the rubber toward home) is illegal and a balk specifically in FED.

I'd rule the same way in OBR.

If this is what you are doing, trying to deceive the runner into thinking the pitcher is LH, then that is a balk. Cannot do anything naturally associated with the pitch while on the mound and not in contact with the rubber. That is what I would rule as well. Balk.

GA Umpire Fri Jul 17, 2009 03:02pm

I don't think so. It sounds to me like the pitcher is just beginning to address the rubber when he decided to pickoff the runner.

HTBT but I don't think it should have been a balk. Maybe the pitcher just accidentally put his foot too close.

Ump Rube Fri Jul 17, 2009 03:05pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by asaron (Post 615265)
One3 of my umpire feiends had a game and for some reason this is the position the pitcher took when there was a runner on second base. Right hand pitcher, mounted the rubber with his left foot int the hole in front of the rubber,his right foot about 15 inches towards second and attempted a pick off at second. he called a balk. was he right??

I am not sure the I am envisioning this correctly, so let me explain what I see (in my mind). On the line down the center of the field I see:

PU
F2
HP
Edge of mound
F1's left foot "in" the rubber (hole in-front of)
Rubber
F1's right foot
2B

(Edit: F1 is still facing 3B as a righty)
If this is right, then I would say on 1st glance, that he is merely straddling the rubber, and is subject to those restrictions, but with the foot in the rubber, I see attempted deception and cause for a balk. I will have to go for further review before giving a complete answer.

GA Umpire Fri Jul 17, 2009 03:18pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by asaron (Post 615265)
One3 of my umpire feiends had a game and for some reason this is the position the pitcher took when there was a runner on second base. Right hand pitcher, mounted the rubber with his left foot int the hole in front of the rubber,his right foot about 15 inches towards second and attempted a pick off at second. he called a balk. was he right??

That is too obvious to be construed as deceiving the runner. If after engaging the rubber and he spins toward 2B on his free foot, I can see a balk called. If his pivot foot was much closer such as 1 or 2 inches, then he spins on his free foot. I can see a balk then.

But, to call one before he even "toes" the rubber and it is obvious to all that he is not on the rubber. I just don't see this as being a balk.

Bad mechanics maybe, but not a balk. If even going by the idea of deception, who is he deceiving? I have no balk and an out if the runner gets caught by such a bad move.

alex7 Fri Jul 17, 2009 04:20pm

earlier thread
 
This was discussed in an earlier thread on here.

With the runner at 2B, the right handed pitcher set up as a left-hander, with his left foot on the rubber. In the stretch position, he was facing 1st base, with his left foot on the rubber. No way he could pitch this way.

He then came set and picked to 2nd base.
Balk.

SanDiegoSteve Fri Jul 17, 2009 04:59pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by alex7 (Post 615297)
This was discussed in an earlier thread on here.

With the runner at 2B, the right handed pitcher set up as a left-hander, with his left foot on the rubber. In the stretch position, he was facing 1st base, with his left foot on the rubber. No way he could pitch this way.

He then came set and picked to 2nd base.
Balk.

Alex, he is describing the pitcher facing third base, with his left foot in the groove in front of the rubber, and his pivot foot 15 inches behind the rubber towards 2nd base. I am envisioning the pitcher just snapping a throw without any step at all, while engaged with the rubber with the wrong foot. I also think it is an illegal attempt to deceive the runner by intentionally contacting the pitcher's plate and simulating a pitching position.

cbfoulds Fri Jul 17, 2009 07:07pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ump Rube (Post 615272)
I am not sure the I am envisioning this correctly, so let me explain what I see (in my mind). On the line down the center of the field I see:

PU
F2
HP
Edge of mound
F1's left foot "in" the rubber (hole in-front of)
Rubber
F1's right foot
2B

(Edit: F1 is still facing 3B as a righty)
If this is right, then I would say on 1st glance, that he is merely straddling the rubber, and is subject to those restrictions, but with the foot in the rubber, I see attempted deception and cause for a balk. I will have to go for further review before giving a complete answer.

"Attempted deception" is NEVER "cause for a balk"!!! LOSE that idea forever.

What you have described [and i THINK what the OP describes] is F1 straddling the rubber [assuming, as you and I do, that he is facing 3d base]. Nothing sinister about that; and yes, he can attempt a pick toward 2d, without any further step or other ado, 'cause he's still an infielder and hasn't assumed a position on the rubber yet. Don't care if his free foot is "in the divot" or 12 inches in front of the rubber - no difference Rules-wise.

About that "deception": it's a balk if it violates a Rule and is deceptive: if it's deceptive and violates none of the pitching Rules, IT"S GOOD PITCHING.

DG Fri Jul 17, 2009 10:27pm

RH pitcher facing 3b, left front on the front edge of the rubber, right foot 15 inches behind the rubber. Any runner fooled by that is not paying attention. He can't pitch from that position. Can't see a balk for attempting a putout.

alex7 Sat Jul 18, 2009 01:38am

Engaged or not?
 
Now that I'm told he's facing third, I'm thinking...

If he's not considered engaged with his left foot on the rubber, then I guess he's just an infielder and can do whatever.

If he is deemed to have engaged the rubber with his left foot...

1.) You give him the FED balk for not engaging the rubber with his throwing side's foot.

Cbfoulds, if his left foot is ON the rubber, I'm not sure that's the same as straddling the rubber. This doesn't seem to be a case of a guy just getting comfortable into his stretch position, where he can do a a little funky footwork. The OP says the guy "mounted" the rubber (insert sex joke here).

mbyron Sat Jul 18, 2009 04:03pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve (Post 615306)
I also think it is an illegal attempt to deceive the runner by intentionally contacting the pitcher's plate and simulating a pitching position.

No rule prohibits simulating a pitching position. 8.05(g) prohibits simulating a pitching motion while off the rubber. ("It is a balk when...The pitcher makes any motion naturally associated with his pitch while he is not touching the pitcher’s plate.")

If F1 has the ball, he may straddle the rubber. No balk. As with any other pitch, he is subject to the time limit between pitches.

kheisner Wed Jul 22, 2009 09:05pm

Works when ump doesn't notice
 
Yes, this is a balk. Pivot foot must be the foot touching the rubber. For a right-handed pitcher the pivot foot is the right foot!!

This is a trick I used to have my pitchers pull when the opposing team had a fast runner with a big lead-off at 2nd base. We picked off a few. Our right-handed pitcher would face 1st base and go to the set-position with his left-foot on the rubber, then he would throw straight back to second base. Umpires or the opposing team never noticed the deception. I'd call the play from the dugout, code word was "Convertible". It worked great and I never had a balk called. I had opposing pitchers after the game ask for me to teach them that great move. (I never did) One umpire at a tourney who umped 3 of our games finally noticed the deception, but he didn't know if it was a balk or not.

Just recently when taking my state high school umpire's test did I learn it was a balk!!

cbfoulds Wed Jul 22, 2009 11:25pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by kheisner (Post 616316)
Yes, this is a balk. Pivot foot must be the foot touching the rubber. For a right-handed pitcher the pivot foot is the right foot!!

This is a trick I used to have my pitchers pull when the opposing team had a fast runner with a big lead-off at 2nd base. We picked off a few. Our right-handed pitcher would face 1st base and go to the set-position with his left-foot on the rubber, then he would throw straight back to second base. Umpires or the opposing team never noticed the deception. I'd call the play from the dugout, code word was "Convertible". It worked great and I never had a balk called. I had opposing pitchers after the game ask for me to teach them that great move. (I never did) One umpire at a tourney who umped 3 of our games finally noticed the deception, but he didn't know if it was a balk or not.

Just recently when taking my state high school umpire's test did I learn it was a balk!!

1st: You are an idiot. I hope you will not umpire with the same attitude and ignorance you coached.
2d: Your umpires were clueless: congratulations.
3d: The reason what your pitcher did was a balk had nothing to do with this thread. He simulated a pitching motion [coming "set"] while not legally in contact with the rubber. Where his non-pivot foot was, or which foot was in [incidental] contact with the rubber really does not matter very much.
4th: the act described in the OP [RHP, straddling the rubber, facing (roughly) 3d base, "free" foot in the crater infront of the rubber (and incidentally touching the front edge), hands at his side] IS NOT a balk because it violates none of the pitching regs which define what a balk is.

kheisner Thu Jul 23, 2009 10:58am

Are you sure you didn't miss it?
 
Honestly, if you are not looking for it......you probably won't notice it. Maybe it has been done to you and you didn't see it. When we did it,(40-50 times) neither the umpire or the other team ever noticed.

This move was taught to me by a college pitcher......I asked him if it was a balk...he said he didn't know if it was a balk or not.......but he did tell me that his team would do it frequently and his coach didn't think it was a balk....and....no umpire had ever called it.
Like I said, until I started to study for my IHSA test......I never knew it was a balk.

I monitor this site and other umpires sites so I can be knowledgeable of the rules. Unlike you folks......most umpires I have encountered (rec, travel, & high school) are limited in their umpiring knowledge. It is very frustrating sometimes....many of these guys are out there just for the pay. Recently I had an umpire tell me that "the hands are part of the bat"!! I didn't argue with the idiot, but I did quietly tell him that was a myth and he could check it out on the internet.
I'm a coach, and you don't know what I have to put up with.......I don't argue much.....I carry rule books with me......and I have filed a protest (I won the protest) when an improper "fielders balk" was called in a Bronco game against my team.

I always enjoy having knowledgeable umpires at my games......however it is not as frequent as I would like.

mbyron Thu Jul 23, 2009 02:51pm

You're kidding, right? I know the pitcher's number, handedness, whether he sets up on the 1B side or 3B side of the ruber, what his 3 moves to 1B are, and how he comes set. I can't imagine an umpire who works above 13U not noticing what you're talking about.

Which is, as Carter points out, completely irrelevant to the OP, where F1 is merely straddling the rubber.

kheisner Thu Jul 23, 2009 03:41pm

Not a joke
 
First of all....go back to the original post. The question was.....can a right-handed pitcher set-up with his left-foot on the rubber to gain an advantage for a pick-off move to second base. That is exactly what I am writing about. Most of you didn't totally understand the question because you don't think you have ever saw it done. This exact situation was addressed this year in the 2009 NFHS case study book.

I kid you not.....my last post was total truth......former college pitcher taught me what his coach had taught his pitchers for years. This pitcher showed me how easy it was to do in a practice game his son was pitching......I was looking for it and I missed it the first time!!:eek:

Honestly....if you are not looking for it....you might miss it.:confused:

SanDiegoSteve Thu Jul 23, 2009 03:44pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by mbyron (Post 616446)
You're kidding, right? I know the pitcher's number, handedness, whether he sets up on the 1B side or 3B side of the ruber, what his 3 moves to 1B are, and how he comes set. I can't imagine an umpire who works above 13U not noticing what you're talking about.

Which is, as Carter points out, completely irrelevant to the OP, where F1 is merely straddling the rubber.

No feeding the trolls, unless you give them Purina Troll Chow.

mbyron Thu Jul 23, 2009 07:19pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve (Post 616461)
No feeding the trolls, unless you give them Purina Troll Chow.

Yeahuh. Sheesh. :rolleyes:


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